No Shock: Bills in Toronto likely done?

[argotom]

No surprise here as this has been a dog with flies since the get go.
Per the latest report here In the Sun.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/03/buffalo-bills-rogers-set-to-meet-in-two-weeks

[AngeloV]

I believe you mean "dog with fleas".

[argotom]

You are correct sir, a detention for me writing the phrase 100 times!

[Invader]

It's hard to understand why Rogers signed up for another 5 years last Jan? It was a collosall struggle to give away enough tickets each Bills game to make the crowds look respectable. I think Rogers convinced themselves that the Bills couldn't remain pitifull forever and if they became a playoff team, Toronto fans would flock to see them. Rogers probably realized after the emabarrasment of the most recent game, which made international headlines for the poor fan support, that the gig was up. Hopefully the Bills in Buffalo will put an end to this folly and let Rogers out of their misery.

[argotom]

The guy who signed up Rogers, if It wasn't the old man himself, for the horrendous $78M should have been fired a long time ago.
Never mind if it is the same person who extended this fiasco contract.

[1argoholic]

Dog with fleas? More like dog crap with tape worm.

[paulwoods13]

Although it was announced last year that a new five-year agreement had been reached, it is entirely possible that was a story that deliberately stretched the truth for public consumption. If no such announcement had been made, the game this season could have been considered a "lame duck" affair, making ticket sales even more difficult. I would not be surprised if the parties agreed last spring to say the series was being extended, but to actually defer any decision until after the fifth game had been held. Of course even if this were the case, we likely will never know the full story.

[jerrym]

The picture in the Sun article says it all.





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[argotom]

And those few fans In the 500 were all freebies.

[zontar]

Soooo many people in TOR media got this thing wrong since Day 1. Lets count their mea culpas if the deal ends. I'm guessing around zero.

[Tau Ceti]

Soooo many people in TOR media got this thing wrong since Day 1. Lets count their mea culpas if the deal ends. I'm guessing around zero.

Start with John Kryk.

* Before last Bills game in Toronto: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/26/freebies-free-bills-in-toronto-game-expected-to-draw-40000
* After the last game in Toronto: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/04/six-reasons-why-bills-in-toronto-series-needs-to-end

I had pronounced cognitive dissonance encountering this man's columns before and after the last Bills game in Toronto. He was extolling a freebie free game in November but calling for the whole thing to be shut down in December (while denouncing freebies...). Huh?

[ArgoRavi]

I think that both sides are trying to find a way to save face which is probably what this upcoming meeting is about. In other words, how can they end this travesty with both sides coming out smelling like roses?

[Argo]

Hopefully the Bills in Buffalo will put an end to this folly and let Rogers out of their misery.

Well and good that the folly ends; on the other hand, it is rather fun seeing Rogers a prisoner of its own device.

[Invader]

The guy who signed up Rogers, if It wasn't the old man himself, for the horrendous $78M should have been fired a long time ago.
Never mind if it is the same person who extended this fiasco contract.
Keith Pelley is president of Rogers and was the front-man for the Bills series renewal. He has to bear some responsibility for the Bills disaster and the surprising decision to renew the series.

His specialty seems to be "papering the crowd" to give the illusion of popularity...style over substance, just like when he was running the Argos.

Pelley's claim that re-signing the Bills for another 5 years "allowed them to show Bills games on Sportsnet" was parroted by the adoring Toronto press (but in fact Sportsnet/City already had a NFL TV deal). The December Bills game in Toronto drew only 250,000 viewers across Canada.

Here is a link to the USA Today article:

http://q.usatoday.com/2013/12/01/toronto-losing-interest-in-bills/

[zontar]

Business is business but TOR media is the goat here.
They championed this from the start. Front and centre was Brunt. and at no point did the offer caveats or warnings that the scheme might not be a slam dunk like "Bills would be a poor draw", "TOR has no attachement to Bills" (which are now used as excuses)

[argotom]

The head cheerleader and number one idiot was and still is the infamous Steven Brunt who on more then one occasion said the Bills series was going to sellout in mere hours over the Ticketmaster site and also likely crash their site.

[ArgoZ]

Many people predicted the success of this venture. No need for name calling. People were wrong and we now have the proof to back it up. This thing was doomed from the very start when Billionaires Ted and Ralph went in front of the media and claimed how rich they would be getting. Ted by charging whatever they wanted and how they would line up like sheep, all the way to King St. Doomed before it even got a chance.

[zontar]

The head cheerleader and number one idiot was and still is the infamous Steven Brunt who on more then one occasion said the Bills series was going to sellout in mere hours over the Ticketmaster site and also likely crash their site.

Need a link for that.

[zontar]

Smattering of research shows from 2007-08 there was a few critics of the business side of the deal, consensus being Rogers rooked themselves in the negotiation . But cant find anywhere a column saying it might not be a success.

If deal is ended get ready for lots of TOR media stories with a told-ya-so tone about TOR sports fans are too smart to pay for a bad Bills team or there wasnt enough good visiting teams , tailgating etc....

Except they never told anyone that when deal was struck.

[mac_davy]

rogers 5 billion dollar Investment In the NHL, they no longer have the NFL rights, and thus aren't interested In the series any longer, they have a new 12 year focus, which to my delight they ridiculously over paid :), they wont be bringing in huge profits on this one.

[paulwoods13]

So this thread becomes another opportunity for media bashing, yet the only source for the series being over is . . . the media.

[zontar]

So this thread becomes another opportunity for media bashing,

Those among the media that warrant "bashing" on this particular topic, yes.

[argotom]

Need a link for that.


On the McCown Fan 590 show when Brunt was and still continues as a co host.
Even tough I no longer listen and or watch , excuses Brunt clamed after the fiasco how the reason for the failure is this was not Toronto's team after all therefore the indifference.
However, he maintains the house was not papered to even the Rogers minimum admitted amounts!

[paulwoods13]

Those among the media that warrant "bashing" on this particular topic, yes.

So is John Kryk one of those? Tau Ceti seems to think he is. Do you?

[Tau Ceti]

So is John Kryk one of those? Tau Ceti seems to think he is. Do you?

Paul, I feel like you're scolding me a little bit here and feel I should clarify my last post. I'm not "bashing the media". I actually appreciate how robust the Sun's coverage is even though I have snobby friends who won't read it. (I read your guest posts prior to the Eastern Final and enjoyed them.) I was simply pointing to one case of flip-flopping over the Bills in Toronto. I don't know Kryk from Adam. But I found it awfully weird that the man went from buying the Rogers/Bills line to, literally, calling for an end to the series. In the the article prior to the game he even fell for the Rogers trick of reducing what constitutes a sellout. It struck me as a little bizarre.

[zontar]

So is John Kryk one of those? Tau Ceti seems to think he is. Do you?

If he was cheeleading at the start of the deal and remained silent about the excuses apologists are peddling now, then, yes.

[paulwoods13]

If he was cheeleading at the start of the deal and remained silent about the excuses apologists are peddling now, then, yes.

OK, if he did that and therefore deserves to be mocked, why are you and others prepared to so readily accept his latest unattributed report that the series is ending?

[Neely2005]

OK, if he did that and therefore deserves to be mocked, why are you and others prepared to so readily accept his latest unattributed report that the series is ending?

I think that there are a few reasons to believe that the series is probably ending. First we know that the Rogers Centre will be installing grass and locking into baseball configuration. Secondly we have the radio interview with the Bills president a few weeks ago where he hinted that they would be looking at all options in regards to getting out of the deal. Third we know that Rogers has lost the NFL rights and invested a lot of money into the NHL. Four we know that a meeting between the two parties is going to take place.

[Will]

I don't think Kryk has been with the Sun all that long. Perhaps a year or two, but certainly after the start of the series.

[Neely2005]

rogers 5 billion dollar Investment In the NHL, they no longer have the NFL rights, and thus aren't interested In the series any longer, they have a new 12 year focus, which to my delight they ridiculously over paid :), they wont be bringing in huge profits on this one.

Why would you want one of Canada's biggest and best Employers to lose money?

Anyway Rogers already made back about a quarter of their money by licensing out the French Language rights:

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/hockeys-french-connection/article15642270/?service=mobile

[Invader]

I'm not so sure that Rogers has "lost the NFL rights". TSN said they were going to offer a "second option" for the early and late Sunday games, not taking over the Sportsnet/CityTV games. Rogers soon responded with their own "second option" of Sunday Night Hockey versus TSN's Sunday Night Football.

We should remember the last time the Argos were close to finalizing their stadium deal (at York), Rogers offered a "sweetheart deal" at RC which Pelley/C&S jumped at...then soon after the deal was signed Rogers turned into Mr. Nasty towards the Argos. I sense the same thing happening this time, with Rogers/MLSE playing nice to attract the Argos into the fold and abandoning their stadium plans, with Rogers/MLSE seizing control of the Argos...for the profits or just their sense of civic duty? I believe there is something more going on here and it won't necessarily be good for Canadian football.

[AngeloV]

I sense the same thing happening this time, with Rogers/MLSE playing nice to attract the Argos into the fold and abandoning their stadium plans, with Rogers/MLSE seizing control of the Argos...for the profits or just their sense of civic duty? I believe there is something more going on here and it won't necessarily be good for Canadian football.

Assuming of course the Argos were serious about building their own stadium. I never bought into that theory. I just don't see Braley dipping into his own pockets to the tune of 100+ million dollars. He has saved 3 franchises, but other than paying the bills, he never made an initial investment (or at the most a very modest initial investment) on any of them.

[paulwoods13]

Kryk has been with the paper for many years but has had his current assignment as NFL beat reporter for only the past couple. He's an excellent reporter.

His report before this year's game quoted Bills in Toronto executive director Greg Albrecht as saying: “Last year we started a no-comps policy, and we’re continuing that trend this year. It doesn’t help anybody when you start giving away tickets to any sort of event. Some people will say that there’s a real fine line between selling tickets and giving away tickets to fill a building and create atmosphere. But we think you create atmosphere by creating value in the ticket, so that’s what we’re continuing to do.” Was Albrecht telling the truth at that time? Maybe yes, maybe no, but if he wasn't, how could Kryk or any reporter know that without any hard evidence to the contrary?

As far as I know, there was no hard evidence that the crowd was going to be papered until a day or two before the game when credible reports with supporting documents (such as copies of Rogers bills referring to free tickets) surfaced on social media and fan forums. Kryk's subsequent column calling for the series to be ended reported that "more giveaways went out late last week, to 'loyal' Rogers Communications customers." So he went to the source, asked a direct question and then reported the answer. And then when new, contradictory information surfaced later, he reported that as well.

If his initial reporting made him guilty of "buying the Rogers line," then every reporter on every beat who reports what he/she is told by those in a position to know the truth is guilty of buying the party line. Many fans criticize reporters who report things the fans don't agree with. If all you want is to confirm your own beliefs, then stop paying attention to journalists.

[zontar]

OK, if he did that and therefore deserves to be mocked, why are you and others prepared to so readily accept his latest unattributed report that the series is ending?

I believe I stated earlier if the deal was ending. Even if it isnt the supposed self-evident facts of why its , thus far, a flop should have been self evident 6 years ago and why not not a peep from media cheerleaders ?

Media is not above scrutiny because they're professionals and the readers are not. If they're guilty of bias or revision or just flat out wrong they ought to be identified as such.

[Invader]

Assuming of course the Argos were serious about building their own stadium. I never bought into that theory. I just don't see Braley dipping into his own pockets to the tune of 100+ million dollars. He has saved 3 franchises, but other than paying the bills, he never made an initial investment (or at the most a very modest initial investment) on any of them.
Mr. Braley said all 3 levels of government will help fund the new Argos stadium...just like MLSE said they've lobbied 3 levels of gov't to pay for the BMO expansion (despite saying in October that not one dollar of taxpayers money will be used for BMO's renovation). While it might not have cost Braley much to purchase the Ticats, Lions and Argos, it was reported he lost $30 million in the first 8 years of Lions ownership. He's probably made that money back by hosting multiple Grey Cups and with the Lions being profitable over the past 6 or 7 seasons.

There is little question that Braley is dedicated to the CFL and will not abandon the Argos without a secure future and a committed owner. The Argos need their own stadium, with revenue from naming rights, concessions, parking, sponsorships, merchandise retailing and 1st choice in game dates. With an Argo stadium in place, the team will be secure. Then it doesn't matter what MLSE, Rogers or NFL do, the team can survive on its own for another 140 years or more.

Mr. Braley is also a man of his word and is not just blowing smoke about his stadium plans. I highly doubt he'll turn the team over to a bunch of sharks whose stated goal is to bring the NFL to Toronto...with the Argos standing in their way (with half of Toronto's football fans supporting the Argos and the NFL's stated assurance of not wanting to harm the league).

[mac_davy]

Why would you want one of Canada's biggest and best Employers to lose money?

Anyway Rogers already made back about a quarter of their money by licensing out the French Language rights:

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/hockeys-french-connection/article15642270/?service=mobile


I realize rogers has a lot of employees, and obviously there are many families that do well because of the steady employment provided by rogers. Having said that, I don't like there business practices, they are highly aggressive and monopolistic.
It was no secret that with men like Phill Lind and company, the agenda was to see the CFL fail, so regardless of the fact that the CFL directly or indirectly employees ten of thousands of people across Canada, entertains millions, and its championship game is a cultural event, these men would gladly have seen a Canadian institution wiped from the landscape to usher in their narcissistic NFL dreams. This is why I dislike rogers, and will never ever own their products.

Phil Lind has an order of Canada too, what a effin joke.

[Tau Ceti]

As far as I know, there was no hard evidence that the crowd was going to be papered until a day or two before the game.

There was plain as day evidence that Rogers was shifting the goal posts on capacity and what % of a sellout the crowd would constitute.

Kryk reported: "A crowd of 40,770 last December watched the streaking Seattle Seahawks obliterate Chan Gailey’s last bad Bills team, 50-17. That attendance figure is exactly 90% of the Rogers Centre’s 45,300 capacity for NFL football, and 93% of non-suite “in the bowl” capacity."

The Rogers Centre capacity for NFL football is most definitely not 45,000. Rogers had consistently announced +50,000 crowds at the beginning of this series. There's one preseason game from 1995 with a reported crowd of almost 55,799: http://www.profootballarchives.com/1995nflbuf.html. (http://www.profootballarchives.com/1995nflbuf.html) I don't know of any structural change to the dome that would account for a 10,000 seat decline in football capacity. Surely Kryk knew about this. He either didn't ask about the discrepancy or didn't report the results. Combine this with his equally uncritical repetition that the game would be freebies free and I do think "buying the Rogers line" is a fair assessment.

That said, I don't think there's anything particularly nefarious about it. Kryk obviously enjoys the NFL and I just think that led him to be overly credulous.
(http://www.profootballarchives.com/1995nflbuf.html)

[paulwoods13]

The capacity change is a valid subject to raise. I, too, would like to know which 10,000 seats have been removed from consideration, and I'd like to see a reporter ask for an explanation of that. But that's a completely different issue than whether or not the house would be papered, which was the original complaint about Kryk's reporting in this thread.

"Combine this with his equally uncritical repetition that the game would be freebies free" -- so what would you have had him do? Call Albrecht a liar? Manufacture evidence of papering before he had it?

Columnists who are paid to give their opinions come under fire around here all the time for doing that rather than reporting. Are we now criticizing a guy for reporting instead of expressing opinion?

[paulwoods13]

Media is not above scrutiny because they're professionals and the readers are not. If they're guilty of bias or revision or just flat out wrong they ought to be identified as such.

I completely agree that media are subject to scrutiny. I evaluate the quality of the journalism in every piece of journalism I consume. But the "scrutiny scale" used in this and other CFL forums is awfully slippery and seems to be heavily weighted towards whether or not the poster agrees or disagrees with the journalist rather than whether appropriate journalistic standards were upheld.

[argotom]

I completely agree that media are subject to scrutiny. I evaluate the quality of the journalism in every piece of journalism I consume. But the "scrutiny scale" used in this and other CFL forums is awfully slippery and seems to be heavily weighted towards whether or not the poster agrees or disagrees with the journalist rather than whether appropriate journalistic standards were upheld.


How can you say that, when the Rogers media empire includes print, radio and TV stations.
All of which have an obvious bias and must toe the party line or else.
How can that bee integrity in journalism?

[Tau Ceti]

"Combine this with his equally uncritical repetition that the game would be freebies free" -- so what would you have had him do? Call Albrecht a liar? Manufacture evidence of papering before he had it?

I would have had him express the deep skepticism any attendance claims by Rogers (for this series, at least) warrant. You don't have to directly accuse someone of lying to indicate to your reader that you're not accepting his claims at face value. I emphasize the lowered capacity issue because I think it shows that the skeptic cap had fallen off his head.

But anyway, we've beaten this subject to death. I'll certainly take your word for it that he's a fine journalist otherwise.

[ArgoRavi]

I would have had him express the deep skepticism any attendance claims by Rogers (for this series, at least) warrant. You don't have to directly accuse someone of lying to indicate to your reader that you're not accepting his claims at face value. I emphasize the lowered capacity issue because I think it shows that the skeptic cap had fallen off his head.

Each and every year of this series, the person in charge for Rogers - Adrian Montgomery at first and Albrecht the last couple of years - has claimed no more freebies and every year that has been shown to be a lie. That is something that Kryk perhaps could have mentioned as well but, anyway, what is done is done.

[rdavies]

Didn't know where else to post this

Cuomo names first members to group tasked with exploring new Bills stadium (http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/cuomo-names-first-members-to-group-tasked-with-exploring-new-bills-stadium-20140210)
Gene Warner Buffalo News February 11, 2014

When the Buffalo Bills signed a new 10-year lease in December 2012 to stay in Orchard Park in exchange for $130 million in stadium renovations, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo promised to consider the idea of building a new stadium.

Monday, the governor made good on the first step in that promise.

In a letter to Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz and Bills President and CEO Russ Brandon, the Cuomo administration announced it had appointed its first five members of the New Stadium Working Group “as part of the state’s unwavering commitment to keep the Buffalo Bills a thriving part of the Buffalo community.”

All three parties – New York State, Erie County and the Bills – can each appoint seven members to the board, which thus could have up to 21 members.

The governor appointed Lt. Gov. Robert Duffy, Buffalo Mayor Byron W. Brown, Niagara Falls Mayor Paul Dyster, Buffalo Niagara Partnership CEO Dottie Gallagher-Cohen and Empire State Development President Kenneth Adams.

“The purpose of the group is to explore options for development and construction of a new stadium in Western New York to serve as a home for the Bills, a catalyst for economic growth and a premier sports and entertainment venue for the region,” stated the letter from Howard B. Glaser, director of state operations and senior policy adviser to the governor.

In the letter, dated Monday, Glaser also asked for a meeting “within the next two weeks” with the county’s and Bills’ representatives, to get the process started.

The news comes a little over a year after state, county and team negotiators struck a deal for a 10-year lease with a $400 million relocation penalty to keep the Bills in the area. The unusual agreement allowed for a one-time exception, after the seventh year, when the penalty would be lowered to $28.4 million, to give the team a single escape clause; team officials, though, stressed that they had no intention of leaving.

As part of the agreement, the state and county agreed to spend $54 million and $41 million, respectively, on renovations to the aging Ralph Wilson Stadium, along with $35 million from the team. Those renovations included new video display boards, a new west end plaza, a new team store, improved gate entrance and concession areas and other technological enhancements.

At the time, Cuomo said the three parties would explore the possibility of building a new stadium in the next 10 years, “if that is financially feasible and intelligent from a development point of view.”

A senior official with the Cuomo administration, who insisted on anonymity, explained the rationale for exploring a new stadium.

“We’re very pleased with the progress on the renovations at the stadium. It’ll be a better fan experience,” the official said. “But we need to ensure the Bills will be in Western New York for the long term, and it’s hard to see how that can happen without having a world-class facility for the Bills as well as other entertainment ideas.”

State officials want to “get going right away” with the first meeting and discussions.

“The administration official said that “all options are on the table,” noting the appointment of Brown and Dyster to the panel. He confirmed that those options include considering downtown Buffalo and the outer harbor, as well as suburban Erie County or Niagara Falls, for possible stadium locations.

The state has “no preset ideas,” he added, but it has to be a coordinated effort that spurs additional development, rather than just a stadium used a few times a year.

“The general experience is that a stadium just plopped down somewhere without sustainable development around it isn’t the best development,” he said.

Based on other new National Football League stadiums, the price tag could reach $800 million to $1 billion.

By the time the lease expires in 2023, Ralph Wilson Stadium would be 50 years old. That’s ancient in NFL circles.

In 2011, team owner Ralph C. Wilson Jr. admitted that the stadium needed a lot of work, as he lobbied for extensive renovations.

“We want the state and the county to put some substantial money into fixing this stadium up,” he said at the time. “It’s crumbling right now. But we don’t want a Taj Mahal. We just want a nice, clean place to watch a football game.”

In the most recent lease negotiations, the Bills asked for stadium renovations costing between $200 million and $220 million. That figure later was reduced to $130 million.

Some observers have claimed that up to $500 million in renovations might be needed to ensure the stadium’s long-term viability in the NFL. The Bills couldn’t be reached to comment.

[Argocister]

I wonder if Rogers group feels used ... And the Bills got money for using them!

[Argo57]

I wonder if Rogers group feels used ... And the Bills got money for using them!

Rogers was so blind with greed heading into this thing, have to say looks good on them!!

[mac_davy]

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/02/12/rogers-communications-profit-drops-20-as-wireless-revenue-stalls-in-fourth-quarter/?__lsa=7c44-b131

Overall rogers missed their forecast by 10%, cant say i don't enjoy watching them lose money. Personally i avoid all rogers products like the plague and will continue to do so, unfortunately next year if I'm forced to watch an NHL game on rogers, i will change the channel during all commercial breaks and flip to TSN or the radio for any post game comments. :)

[argotom]

Except for going to the Rogers crap dome, we should all boycott that company big time.

[jerrym]

Except for going to the Rogers crap dome, we should all boycott that company big time.
I already am.

[Neely2005]

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/02/12/rogers-communications-profit-drops-20-as-wireless-revenue-stalls-in-fourth-quarter/?__lsa=7c44-b131

Overall rogers missed their forecast by 10%, cant say i don't enjoy watching them lose money. Personally i avoid all rogers products like the plague and will continue to do so, unfortunately next year if I'm forced to watch an NHL game on rogers, i will change the channel during all commercial breaks and flip to TSN or the radio for any post game comments. :)

So you want to see people lose their jobs?

Just an FYI but Rogers is named one of the top employers in Canada almost every year and they employee about 30,000 Canadians.


Except for going to the Rogers crap dome, we should all boycott that company big time.

Why? So more good paying Canadian jobs can disappear?

[Ron]

Except for going to the Rogers crap dome, we should all boycott that company big time.

If your stance had any balls ... you'd not go to the crap dome either. :ohno:

[mac_davy]

So you want to see people lose their jobs?

Just an FYI but Rogers is named one of the top employers in Canada almost every year and they employee about 30,000 Canadians.



Why? So more good paying Canadian jobs can disappear?

The CFL entertains millions of people, its employees thousands, indirectly tens of thousands, and its championship game is a cultural institution. Rogers and their Media allies in Toronto have been on a deliberate campaign to see it removed or pushed to a corner, and for what, so Phil Lind and a hand full of media personalities who suffer with inferiority complexes can say they are part of the "biggest league in the world", this wasn't money driven, lets be real here, it would have been a decade or more before an NFL franchise in Toronto made its money back after all the costs are factored, it was all personal ego. Did they give a crap about the thousands, tens of thousands, and millions of people across this country that could have been deeply affected. So no i don't give a crap about rogers, their greedy monopolistic agenda, and any employee who happens to make a living off their crooked agenda. You know what I'm celebrating now, they lost, there a few bitter personalities who will continue to tell themselves MLSE is buying the Argos to lay the ground work for and NFL team, This is laughable, MSLE is buying them because they can see the profits and the CFL over then next decade will continue to grow get stronger with bigger ratings, bigger corporate sponsorship, with stability in Ontario on the horizon and expansion to Atlantic Canada and beyond the CFL with cement its self even more tightly in the fabric of Canada, this is why MLSE is buying them.

[Skinny G]

So you want to see people lose their jobs?

Just an FYI but Rogers is named one of the top employers in Canada almost every year and they employee about 30,000 Canadians.



Why? So more good paying Canadian jobs can disappear?

Not sure if you know how many jobs they have outsourced to other countries.... when Ted was alive... it wasn't as bad but knowing from an immediate family member that worked there... they had jobs in the US and got rid of them here... luckily he got out before they took it further and basically wiped out whole departments and sent them to other countries. You MAY want to take that into consideration too

[Neely2005]

Except for going to the Rogers crap dome, we should all boycott that company big time.


If your stance had any balls ... you'd not go to the crap dome either. :ohno:

Good point. A boycott is pointless if you're not boycotting everything. And if MLSE buys the Argonauts then Rogers will become part owners of the Argonauts.

Also you'd better boycott all CBC programing as Rogers carries all of their transmission traffic. Same thing for the LCBO & the OLG.


The CFL entertains millions of people, its employees thousands, indirectly tens of thousands, and its championship game is a cultural institution. Rogers and their Media allies in Toronto have been on a deliberate campaign to see it removed or pushed to a corner, and for what, so Phil Lind and a hand full of media personalities who suffer with inferiority complexes can say they are part of the "biggest league in the world", this wasn't money driven, lets be real here, it would have been a decade or more before an NFL franchise in Toronto made its money back after all the costs are factored, it was all personal ego. Did they give a crap about the thousands, tens of thousands, and millions of people across this country that could have been deeply affected. So no i don't give a crap about rogers, their greedy monopolistic agenda, and any employee who happens to make a living off their crooked agenda. You know what I'm celebrating now, they lost, there a few bitter personalities who will continue to tell themselves MLSE is buying the Argos to lay the ground work for and NFL team, This is laughable, MSLE is buying them because they can see the profits and the CFL over then next decade will continue to grow get stronger with bigger ratings, bigger corporate sponsorship, with stability in Ontario on the horizon and expansion to Atlantic Canada and beyond the CFL with cement its self even more tightly in the fabric of Canada, this is why MLSE is buying them.

Uh you do know that Rogers owns MSLE right?

If Rogers really wanted to hurt the CFL they would have thrown the Argonauts out onto the street instead of renewing their lease at the Rogers Centre multiple times. Rogers also gave the Argonauts a very favourable (cheap) lease at the Rogers Centre.

The FAN590 regularly has interviews with CFL players and coaches & guess what they're owned by Rogers.

This whole Rogers anti CFL conspiracy theory is ridiculous and quite frankly it's disgusting that you're rooting for ordinary hard working Canadians to lose their jobs.

Another thing to consider is that the Canada Pension Plan holds a lot of Rogers stock so if Rogers does poorly so does your CPP retirement payouts.


Not sure if you know how many jobs they have outsourced to other countries.... when Ted was alive... it wasn't as bad but knowing from an immediate family member that worked there... they had jobs in the US and got rid of them here... luckily he got out before they took it further and basically wiped out whole departments and sent them to other countries. You MAY want to take that into consideration too

I know people who work at Rogers and they've done the opposite. They brought back all of their call centres to Canada years ago which is the opposite of Bell.

[argonaut11xx]

The unusual agreement allowed for a one-time exception, after the seventh year, when the penalty would be lowered to $28.4 million, to give the team a single escape clause;

For what its worth, on "The Team 1040" with Bro Jake, and David Pratt (who by the way takes every opportunity to slam anything Toronto) spoke about the "out clause" in the 7th year for a few hours. Pratt seemed to have some inside info that this buyout will be used by a Tim Leiweke lead bid to bring the NFL to Toronto by 2020.

The strange part is that Pratt talked about this issue for almost the entire morning show, as if its a done deal.

As an aside...sports radio out here on the left coast sucks bigtime, its barely on the college level...barely...a severe lack of on air talent.

[argotom]

If your stance had any balls ... you'd not go to the crap dome either. :ohno:

I do practice what I preach, as I have been boycotting all Rogers products for years.
As for the crap dome, no chance as having been a season ticket holder for 20 years and don't forget, then it was the Skydome not owned by the crooks.

[doubleblue]

It's still the SkyDome in my books. Maybe it's not the best place for football except when it's too hot, too cold or too wet. That takes in about 75% of the games. lol

[Neely2005]

I do practice what I preach, as I have been boycotting all Rogers products for years.
As for the crap dome, no chance as having been a season ticket holder for 20 years and don't forget, then it was the Skydome not owned by the crooks.

So you don't watch anything on CBC or Sportsnet?

So you don't ever buy a lottery ticket or proline ticket?

So you don't ever buy anything at the LCBO?

So you don't ever buy anything at the Rogers Centre including Argonauts tickets?


It's still the SkyDome in my books. Maybe it's not the best place for football except when it's too hot, too cold or too wet. That takes in about 75% of the games. lol

Yeah I'm going to miss the Rogers Centre for those October and November games.

[mac_davy]

I don't wish for any good people to lose there jobs, but i do not support a greedy, aggressive company that seek to monopolize markets, ( the NHL rights is a perfect example of them attempting to monopolize ) i resent that business practice, because companies with that attitude do not try to provide the best products and services, they attempt to force you to use them because they have driven the competition out.

As for jobs, where and for who a person chooses to make there living isn't my concern, but i will not be hijacked into paying for or over paying for a product by a company that has done its fair share of wiping other peoples jobs out, just to line their pockets, regardless if some good people make a living off them. Like i said some good people made a living off of companies Rogers gleefully crushed.

I guarantee Rogers pulled its call centers because it made better business sense not for any compassionate reasons, if you think other wise your a deluded. I work in the entertainment business, and were closing our Animation outsourcing in India, not because the industry or management cares, but because the service we got was a nightmare and we had to redo most of the work becasue the quality just wasn't there

My CPP retirement, LOL what when i'm 67 now LOL, i'm well invested, I'm really not leaving my future in anyone else hands, especially rogers LOL.

[Ron]

I don't wish for any good people to lose there jobs, but i do not support a greedy, aggressive company that seek to monopolize markets, ( the NHL rights is a perfect example of them attempting to monopolize ) i resent that business practice, because companies with that attitude do not try to provide the best products and services, they attempt to force you to use them because they have driven the competition out.

As for jobs, where and for who a person chooses to make there living isn't my concern, but i will not be hijacked into paying for or over paying for a product by a company that has done its fair share of wiping other peoples jobs out, just to line their pockets, regardless if some good people make a living off them. Like i said some good people made a living off of companies Rogers gleefully crushed.

I guarantee Rogers pulled its call centers because it made better business sense not for any compassionate reasons, if you think other wise your a deluded. I work in the entertainment business, and were closing our Animation outsourcing in India, not because the industry or management cares, but because the service we got was a nightmare and we had to redo most of the work becasue the quality just wasn't there

My CPP retirement, LOL what when i'm 67 now LOL, i'm well invested, I'm really not leaving my future in anyone else hands, especially rogers LOL.

So you don't have a phone? No cable? Because EVERY company in the space is just like Rogers ... or would be if they got the chance.

[mac_davy]

So you don't have a phone? No cable? Because EVERY company in the space is just like Rogers ... or would be if they got the chance.

All companies have an agenda, some are much much more aggressive. rogers is on the hyper aggressive end of the spectrum

[argotom]

It all went south for me when Rogers negative option billing in 1995 caused such an uproar with the country like never seen before.
Not only tarnishing their image for life, in my mind this crooked company has not done anything to improve since then.

[ArgoZ]

I think I am going to boycott anything and everything that doesn't have an Argonaut logo. My toughest challenges may be finding enough suitable underwear and of course food and drink options. I do have a couple bottles of Jones Soda with Kerry Joseph on the label, so I should survive for a few days.

[ArgoGabe22]

I think I am going to boycott anything and everything that doesn't have an Argonaut logo. My toughest challenges may be finding enough suitable underwear and of course food and drink options. I do have a couple bottles of Jones Soda with Kerry Joseph on the label, so I should survive for a few days.

You could always live off of Argo/CFL sponsors. I'm not sure if they still are but there's Stagg Chili.

[argotom]

I think I am going to boycott anything and everything that doesn't have an Argonaut logo. My toughest challenges may be finding enough suitable underwear and of course food and drink options. I do have a couple bottles of Jones Soda with Kerry Joseph on the label, so I should survive for a few days.


A little tongue and cheek?
How about the most obvious if it applies to you, cell phone, cable, radio and TV watching?

[AngeloV]

I think I am going to boycott anything and everything that doesn't have an Argonaut logo. My toughest challenges may be finding enough suitable underwear and of course food and drink options. I do have a couple bottles of Jones Soda with Kerry Joseph on the label, so I should survive for a few days.

LMFAO!!! I wonder who you could be mocking here?? Things that make you go HMMMMM.

[Ron]

A little tongue and cheek?
How about the most obvious if it applies to you, cell phone, cable, radio and TV watching?

You know that if MLSE buys the Argos ... you are required to drop your Argo tickets since they'll be a Rogers product.

[BATKINSON001]

You could always live off of Argo/CFL sponsors. I'm not sure if they still are but there's Stagg Chili. walmart carrys Pinty's products... they are still a sponsor and were a sponsor during the 100th grey cup...

[argotom]

You know that if MLSE buys the Argos ... you are required to drop your Argo tickets since they'll be a Rogers product.

No requirement per say.
But still a decision to be made after being a multi year season ticket holder and life long fan.

[paulwoods13]

I don't see how hatred of a corporation should outweigh a lifetime of supporting a team. It's not as if the Argos are being bought by RJ Reynolds or some other company that makes products that kill people.

[argotom]

I don't see how hatred of a corporation should outweigh a lifetime of supporting a team. It's not as if the Argos are being bought by RJ Reynolds or some other company that makes products that kill people.

That is the way I am leaning.

[Fumblitis]

If any Argo fan bails on 'em because MLSE buys them is playing right into the NFL wannabes plans!

[LLB997]

If Larry T buys them, then you have dodged the Rogers ownership bullet somewhat. I use Primus, CFL sponsor

[Neely2005]

If Larry T buys them, then you have dodged the Rogers ownership bullet somewhat. I use Primus, CFL sponsor

Primus uses the Rogers network for most of their services. Because Canada is so big with such a small population only a few companies have invested the money it takes to build your own network. Even a small local network costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

And the Argonauts still do play at the Rogers Centre...

[Mulder]

Primus uses the Rogers network for most of their services. Because Canada is so big with such a small population only a few companies have invested the money it takes to build your own network. Even a small local network costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

And the Argonauts still do play at the Rogers Centre...

Highly incorrect assumption. Primus does lease Bell and Rogers cable/telephone lines because Bell and Rogers are mandated to share. The Government of Canada gave exclusive rights to Bell & later Rogers to run these lines in City/province, etc owned Right of ways & Canada highly subsidized those private company's to construct those lines too. In return they had to allow competition and sharing.

As for Rogers, they were given an area of Toronto to control exclusive rights as well (in the 1960's)

It didn't make sense in 1880 to construct multiple telephone lines for different companies, as it didn't make sense in the 1960's for cable and doesn't make sense today.

As I work in construction/design, I can imagine the huge headache I would have if I had to deal with more than the current 2-3 buried telecommunications company's along with all the other buried services.

Leasing the line is pennies on the dollar, though the lines they still run their own circuit. Without getting too technical, think of your car going though a tunnel, somebody/city/municipality owns the tunnel, but you own and run the object going though the tunnel. The major difference is the ends of the tunnel are different, as you would be routed to a different provider.

To say that you support Rogers because you get your internet though Primus isn't a correct assumption, when the only part that Primus uses is the tunnel or lines, which are the cheapest overall to provide.

[Neely2005]

Highly incorrect assumption. Primus does lease Bell and Rogers cable/telephone lines because Bell and Rogers are mandated to share. The Government of Canada gave exclusive rights to Bell & later Rogers to run these lines in City/province, etc owned Right of ways & Canada highly subsidized those private company's to construct those lines too. In return they had to allow competition and sharing.

As for Rogers, they were given an area of Toronto to control exclusive rights as well (in the 1960's)

It didn't make sense in 1880 to construct multiple telephone lines for different companies, as it didn't make sense in the 1960's for cable and doesn't make sense today.

As I work in construction/design, I can imagine the huge headache I would have if I had to deal with more than the current 2-3 buried telecommunications company's along with all the other buried services.

Leasing the line is pennies on the dollar, though the lines they still run their own circuit. Without getting too technical, think of your car going though a tunnel, somebody/city/municipality owns the tunnel, but you own and run the object going though the tunnel. The major difference is the ends of the tunnel are different, as you would be routed to a different provider.

To say that you support Rogers because you get your internet though Primus isn't a correct assumption, when the only part that Primus uses is the tunnel or lines, which are the cheapest overall to provide.

You're partially correct. That is how it is done in regards to leased copper loops / twisted pair service for DSL and legacy home telephone service. However as technology moves away from those legacy services towards Fibre that is no longer the case. Primus doesn't have it's own Fibre network or Cellular Network they're a customer of Rogers Business Solutions. In fact even most of their legacy DSL service is straight resale. As to their legacy home phone service they send their signal through leased loops from Bell so again they don't have their own network.

Also it doesn't cost "pennies" to lease the copper loops. A few years ago the CRTC deregulated the tarrif allowing Bell to significantly increase what they charge to lease a loop. It's around $30 a month per A1 or A2 Loop. A5 Loops cost more. The prices are significantly higher now that they've been deregulated.

[T-Bone]

Who cares? Either support the Argos or don't, it's up to each individual to decide. I'm not saying people shouldn't be critical of ownership but the way I see it, as fans we don't have control over who owns the team. I'm not going to base my support for a team solely on the ownership of said team.

[paulwoods13]

I'm not saying people shouldn't be critical of ownership but the way I see it, as fans we don't have control over who owns the team. I'm not going to base my support for a team solely on the ownership of said team.

Good way of putting it. I will admit that I very briefly "boycotted" the team in 2000 when my anger over Huard reached a boiling point, but if we can continue to support the team through all the different ownership groups we've had (some of which didn't pay their bills around town), surely we can overcome any enmity towards Rogers (or Bell, or Tanenbaum, for that matter).

[ArgoRavi]

In fairness to ArgoTom, if he doesn't want to put any more money into Rogers' hands than absolutely necessary, then all the power to him.

[Mulder]

You're partially correct. That is how it is done in regards to leased copper loops / twisted pair service for DSL and legacy home telephone service. However as technology moves away from those legacy services towards Fibre that is no longer the case. Primus doesn't have it's own Fibre network or Cellular Network they're a customer of Rogers Business Solutions. In fact even most of their legacy DSL service is straight resale. As to their legacy home phone service they send their signal through leased loops from Bell so again they don't have their own network.

Also it doesn't cost "pennies" to lease the copper loops. A few years ago the CRTC deregulated the tarrif allowing Bell to significantly increase what they charge to lease a loop. Even before then it was $30+ a month per A1 or A2 Loop. A5 Loops cost more. Now the prices are significantly higher.

It's not, nor has ever been that much, and all the "line leasing" are passed on to the consumer anyways. 90% of Bell Canada's lines fall into Band rate A or B. Which carries a monthly fee of $7-$9 dollars. My comment on pennies on the dollar was as compared to how much your internet bill is actually devoted to playing this off.

Primus and Teksavvy do own some of their own networks, and in most cases investing in fibre to their own hubs. What you are leasing in major cities is "the last mile". It doesn't make sense to have cables from all players going down a street in telecommunications. It would become an utter mess and me massively expensive.

[Neely2005]

Good way of putting it. I will admit that I very briefly "boycotted" the team in 2000 when my anger over Huard reached a boiling point, but if we can continue to support the team through all the different ownership groups we've had (some of which didn't pay their bills around town), surely we can overcome any enmity towards Rogers (or Bell, or Tanenbaum, for that matter).

At least you were boycotting them for football reasons. :-)


It's not, nor has ever been that much, and all the "line leasing" are passed on to the consumer anyways. 90% of Bell Canada's lines fall into Band rate A or B. Which carries a monthly fee of $7-$9 dollars. My comment on pennies on the dollar was as compared to how much your internet bill is actually devoted to playing this off.

Primus and Teksavvy do own some of their own networks, and in most cases investing in fibre to their own hubs. What you are leasing in major cities is "the last mile". It doesn't make sense to have cables from all players going down a street in telecommunications. It would become an utter mess and me massively expensive.

Your figures are incorrect. The amount of the network that they own is minuscule and has very little Fibre. I've worked in the telecommunications industry for 20+ years. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this outside of the Thread.

[Mulder]

Your figures are incorrect. The amount of the network that they own is minuscule and has very little Fibre. I've worked in the telecommunications industry for 20+ years. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this outside of the Thread.

My "Incorrect Figures" are right from the CRTC website.

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2011/2011-24.htm

I pay 32.99 plus that Band Rate B for Internet dry loop lease though TekSavvy. What you are trying to tell me is that TekSavvy only profits $2.99 per month from me + Band Fee.

As for the amount of network they own. I never said it was vast, those companies will never be running fibre or cables into your home. That being said, Primus has heavily invested in Fibre infrastructure in Ottawa and it's best for those smaller companies to run their infrastructure in cities were Bell/Rogers are not as up to date.

http://primus.ca/business/about-primus/news/2013-04-24_Primus-Business-Services-Enhances-Fibre-Optic-Offering-in-Ottawa.php

[mac_davy]

i thought Rogers and the bills were meeting in January to discuss the future of the series, did this ever occur?

[Neely2005]

My "Incorrect Figures" are right from the CRTC website.

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2011/2011-24.htm

I pay 32.99 plus that Band Rate B for Internet dry loop lease though TekSavvy. What you are trying to tell me is that TekSavvy only profits $2.99 per month from me + Band Fee.

As for the amount of network they own. I never said it was vast, those companies will never be running fibre or cables into your home. That being said, Primus has heavily invested in Fibre infrastructure in Ottawa and it's best for those smaller companies to run their infrastructure in cities were Bell/Rogers are not as up to date.

http://primus.ca/business/about-primus/news/2013-04-24_Primus-Business-Services-Enhances-Fibre-Optic-Offering-in-Ottawa.php

And what about the Rate F? We're going way off track here which is why I said to PM me but the rates very based on Loop Type, Loop Distance and Loop Location. Also there is an order charge to consider plus the fact that most modern / next generation services don't use copper loops at all.

Also the CRTC decision that you're referring to is outdated and off the top of my head I know that it's been amended at least once:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-628.htm

As to Primus offering Fibre services where Bell or Rogers don't I can't think of an area where that's the case. Rogers Business Solutions has been acquiring Fibre assets like Atria, Blink and Mountain Cable in addition to companies like Blackiron, Pivot and Granite. Well Bell has been doing the same with companies like Q9 Networks.

http://business.rogers.com/rbs-networks/

Anyway this will be my last post about this in the Thread. PM me if you want to discuss it further.

[mac_davy]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2014/2/18/5422016/buffalo-rumblings-mailbag-toronto-series-jabari-greer

this just got posted at CFL.ca

[Mulder]

And what about the Rate F? We're going way off track here which is why I said to PM me but the rates very based on Loop Type, Loop Distance and Loop Location. Also there is an order charge to consider plus the fact that most modern / next generation services don't use copper loops at all.

Also the CRTC decision that you're referring to is outdated and off the top of my head I know that it's been amended at least once:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-628.htm

As to Primus offering Fibre services where Bell or Rogers don't I can't think of an area where that's the case. Rogers Business Solutions has been acquiring Fibre assets like Atria, Blink and Mountain Cable in addition to companies like Blackiron, Pivot and Granite. Well Bell has been doing the same with companies like Q9 Networks.

http://business.rogers.com/rbs-networks/

Anyway this will be my last post about this in the Thread. PM me if you want to discuss it further.

Completely minor adjustments. Your going up by $3 for Band A and ~ $5 for Band B. As for your Rate 'F' Please tell me what percentage of Canadians actually fall under this category? Considering that 90% of Canadians fall under Rate A or B.

It's fine that you want to stop posting about this, but I'm not going to let you go around and posting mis-information publically. Especially when you are saying that the line rental fee's for DCL/Cable internet almost cost more than the service it's self.

[ArgoRavi]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2014/2/18/5422016/buffalo-rumblings-mailbag-toronto-series-jabari-greer

this just got posted at CFL.ca

They either have to continue with it or end it in such a way that Rogers doesn't come out of it with any more egg on their collective faces than they already have. I don't know if the latter is possible though.

[Neely2005]

They either have to continue with it or end it in such a way that Rogers doesn't come out of it with any more egg on their collective faces than they already have. I don't know if the latter is possible though.

The article says that the Bills would have to buy out the contract with Rogers.

[Mulder]

While your post was deleted neely I still saw it and I never said what you were implying so don't put words in my mouth.

[ArgoRavi]

The article says that the Bills would have to buy out the contract with Rogers.

And if they do, it still doesn't look good on Rogers that the deal had to end early for them. I just don't know how this deal ends early without Rogers looking bad and that will be a huge consideration in any negotiation between the Bills and Rogers.

[Neely2005]

While your post was deleted neely I still saw it and I never said what you were implying so don't put words in my mouth.

I deleted my post because it's simply not worth it. It's off topic and you're still caught up in the legacy, copper CLEC world of the past.


And if they do, it still doesn't look good on Rogers that the deal had to end early for them. I just don't know how this deal ends early without Rogers looking bad and that will be a huge consideration in any negotiation between the Bills and Rogers.

What I don't get is how are the Bills supposed to continue to play at the Rogers Centre once it's converted to grass and locked into baseball configuration.

[Mulder]

I deleted my post because it's simply not worth it. It's off topic and you're still caught up in the legacy, copper CLEC world of the past.

This all originated when you "claimed" line lease fee's were upwards of $30. Which I proved you to be highly incorrect. I never got into the details of each networks infrastructure. Which you keep bringing up as if to prove a point or something.

As I said previously, i'm not letting you post this incorrect assumptions in public. You decided to point out "Rate F", which is close to the amount you specified (Still no way upwards of your original claim) but not pointed out how many Canadians are actually affected by that rate.

[ArgoRavi]

What I don't get is how are the Bills supposed to continue to play at the Rogers Centre once it's converted to grass and locked into baseball configuration.

They would play their one game per season after baseball season is over.

[Neely2005]

This all originated when you "claimed" line lease fee's were upwards of $30. Which I proved you to be highly incorrect. I never got into the details of each networks infrastructure. Which you keep bringing up as if to prove a point or something.

As I said previously, i'm not letting you post this incorrect assumptions in public. You decided to point out "Rate F", which is close to the amount you specified (Still no way upwards of your original claim) but not pointed out how many Canadians are actually affected by that rate.

Your Link is 3 Years old and as I showed you the CRTC has changed those fees at Least once (probably more) since then. It also doesn't factor in the Order Fees or Maintenance Fees. Regardless those fees are for LEGACY services not Fibre services. The ILECs don't have to share/lease/resell their Fibre, which is part of the reason that they're moving to Fibre networks.

And seriously drop the 'not going to let me routine', it's condescending and you can't stop anyone from posting anything. Guess what I just posted it on my Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, other message boards... and you weren't able to stop me.


They would play their one game per season after baseball season is over.

So it's only locked into that configuration during the baseball season? I thought that it was permanently locked in that configuration because moving the stands would destroy the grass?

[T-Bone]

And seriously drop the 'not going to let me routine', it's condescending and you can't stop anyone from posting anything. Guess what I just posted it on my Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, other message boards... and you weren't able to stop me.Actually, moderates can delete your posts and ban you from the site they moderate. Can we get this thread back on topic please?


So it's only locked into that configuration during the baseball season? I thought that it was permanently locked in that configuration because moving the stands would destroy the grass?
Yes, it will only be locked in to baseball configuration during the baseball season. They don't want to miss out on financial opportunities outside the baseball season.

[Mulder]

Your Link is 3 Years old and as I showed you the CRTC has changed those fees at Least once (probably more) since then. It also doesn't factor in the Order Fees or Maintenance Fees. Regardless those fees are for LEGACY services not Fibre services. The ILECs don't have to share/lease/resell their Fibre, which is part of the reason that they're moving to Fibre networks.

And seriously drop the 'not going to let me routine', it's condescending and you can't stop anyone from posting anything. Guess what I just posted it on my Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn... and you weren't able to stop me.

As I posted, they went up by $3. (And I quoted my last posts the new fee's) So you are incorrect again. This is never about Fibre networks to the home? But why are you trying to bring up newer technology most Canadians still don't have access to? You keep bringing it up as if it's everywhere to prove a point? I serious doubt you'd want to get into a real network infrastructure debate with me.

I'm not letting you post incorrect information about certain things thinking your right, if I have to correct every single one of your posts on this matter I will.

As for "Not able to stop me" comment. I just have to LOL.
Seeing as I deal with the backend stuff here at Argofans.com. If I wanted to stop you from posting, it's 3 clicks & a password, 5 if I wanted to nuke your account.

[Neely2005]

Actually, moderates can delete your posts and ban you from the site they moderate. Can we get this thread back on topic please?


Yes, it will only be locked in to baseball configuration during the baseball season. They don't want to miss out on financial opportunities outside the baseball season.

Hey I tried to get it back on topic numerous times. I didn't realize that he was a moderator. I guess that the rules don't apply to him but again he has no control of the Internet outside of this little website.

So what will happen to the grass? Will they have to re-plant it every season?

[Mulder]

Hey I tried to get it back on topic numerous times.


Continuing the topic and then at the end of your post saying "Let's get this back on topic" Really isn't trying to get it back on topic is it?


I didn't realize that he was a moderator. I guess that the rules don't apply to him but again he has no control of the Internet outside of this little website.


What 'rules' did I break?

I'm willing to bet that my time at IBM as a network Infrastructure analyst I had more "control" of the Internet than you would ever dream of.

[Neely2005]

Continuing the topic and then at the end of your post saying "Let's get this back on topic" Really isn't trying to get it back on topic is it?

Pot meet kettle...

[T-Bone]

So what will happen to the grass? Will they have to re-plant it every season?
We'll just have to wait and see what system they come up with. My understanding is that the grass won't be planted but laid on top of the concrete surface in some fashion for the baseball season and then removed when it is finished.

[Mulder]

Pot meet kettle...

Are you referring to yourself? I never claimed to attempt to bring it back "on topic" unlike yourself

[Neely2005]

What 'rules' did I break?

I'm willing to bet that my time at IBM as a network Infrastructure analyst I had more "control" of the Internet than you would ever dream of.

Isn't off topic against the rules? That's why I extended a PM invitation. Cool and as I said I have 20 years in the Telecommunications industry working for numerous ILEC and CLEC companies.


We'll just have to wait and see what system they come up with. My understanding is that the grass won't be planted but laid on top of the concrete surface in some fashion for the baseball season and then removed when it is finished.

So what happens to the Bills game if the Jays make the playoffs? (Yeah yeah I know that it's highly unlikely :-)

[T-Bone]

So what happens to the Bills game if the Jays make the playoffs? (Yeah yeah I know that it's highly unlikely :-)
I don't have all the logistical answers but I'm sure they will figure something out.

[ArgoRavi]

If the Bills game is scheduled from about mid-November onwards then it won't matter if the Jays make the playoffs or not.

[ArgoZ]

We'll just have to wait and see what system they come up with. My understanding is that the grass won't be planted but laid on top of the concrete surface in some fashion for the baseball season and then removed when it is finished.

If they are going to lay it down similar to the recent soccer games they have had at the dome, then they can sure remove it for any event, even one requiring seating reconfiguration. They could even bring in turf for football and grass for baseball. Turnover would be more time, as would cost, but that's already known when switching to expensive grass. I just can't see multipurpose Rogers Centre sitting idle for a long baseball season. It is currently and constantly booked every weekend and more, as is.

[mac_davy]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/have-bills-played-last-game-at-rogers-centre

If its season tickets notices have been delayed this long, its because the bills are trying to get out of this deal, and rogers is still saying they want it. Phil Lind wont give up, and admit this was a turd.

[Ron]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/have-bills-played-last-game-at-rogers-centre

If its season tickets notices have been delayed this long, its because the bills are trying to get out of this deal, and rogers is still saying they want it. Phil Lind wont give up, and admit this was a turd.

Lind is the one who wanted it to begin with. Ted (who lots here deride unfairly) went with the idea because he was sold that it would be a big money maker. I doubt it would have been renewed in the first place if Ted was still around.

Anyways. We'll see soon if this reporter has just been talking out if his ass the whole time.

[mac_davy]

Lind is the one who wanted it to begin with. Ted (who lots here deride unfairly) went with the idea because he was sold that it would be a big money maker. I doubt it would have been renewed in the first place if Ted was still around.

Anyways. We'll see soon if this reporter has just been talking out if his ass the whole time.

I don't even get what rogers wants this for, they don't even think they have the national rights to broadcast it, they might have the regional but that's it. TSN has exclusive national broadcast rights to all the NFL next year. Rogers through everything at the NHL.

[T-Bone]

If they are going to lay it down similar to the recent soccer games they have had at the dome, then they can sure remove it for any event, even one requiring seating reconfiguration. They could even bring in turf for football and grass for baseball. Turnover would be more time, as would cost, but that's already known when switching to expensive grass. I just can't see multipurpose Rogers Centre sitting idle for a long baseball season. It is currently and constantly booked every weekend and more, as is.
Like I said we will have to wait and see but they have said several times that during the baseball season the seat configuration will be locked in place because of the grass. I believe they also mentioned that they are going to put in a drainage system in to the floor which is currently not there. I assume the drainage would be so they could water the grass over the baseball season. When they lay the grass down for soccer games it is used only the one time, if they did that every weekend or every other weekend it would be extremely expensive. Also a baseball field is significantly larger than a soccer pitch.

[Invader]

I don't even get what rogers wants this for, they don't even think they have the national rights to broadcast it, they might have the regional but that's it. TSN has exclusive national broadcast rights to all the NFL next year. Rogers through everything at the NHL.
After the NFL endorsed the renewal of the Bills in Toronto series, Rogers waited a few months, then signed for another 5 years. I believe this was done to maintain Rogers relationship with the NFL. They would have egg on their faces if they decided to reject the NFL games after Goddell had approved the deal. Rogers was probably hoping the Bills would finally became a playoff-calibre team, which might stoke some fan interest in Toronto.

Pelley said during the BiT confirmation press conference that the deal "allowed the Bills in Toronto game to be broadcast on Sportsnet", which probably cinched the deal for Rogers. I believe the NFL agreed to schedule the BiT game at 4:00 pm, so could be shown on Sportsnet (the actual NFL TV rights were purchased by Rogers in a separate deal).

The 2013 Bills in Toronto game drew only 250,000 viewers across Canada on Sportsnet.

I'm not so sure Rogers is actually losing their NFL broadcasting rights to TSN, that has not been confirmed as far as I know.

[mac_davy]

http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/bell-media-extend-and-expand-canadian-nfl-rights-all-sunday-games-on-ctv-and-tsn/

TSN and Bell have exclusive sunday coverage of all the Canadian brodcast NFL games, so unless the bills in toronto is moved to another time as far as i know Rogers can't even televise it.

[ArgoRavi]

http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/bell-media-extend-and-expand-canadian-nfl-rights-all-sunday-games-on-ctv-and-tsn/

TSN and Bell have exclusive sunday coverage of all the Canadian brodcast NFL games, so unless the bills in toronto is moved to another time as far as i know Rogers can't even televise it.

TSN/Bell, I believe, have the rights to the 1 pm and Sunday/Monday night (and maybe the Thursday night?) games while Rogers has the rights to the 4 pm games on Sunday. All of the Bills in Toronto games so far have been shown on Rogers.

[mac_davy]

its says in the press release TSN now has Sunday 4pm games, i'm i reading that incorrectly? or is it divided?

[AngeloV]

its says in the press release TSN now has Sunday 4pm games, i'm i reading that incorrectly? or is it divided?

That is correct. The deal Ravi speaks of expeired after the 2013 season.

[ArgoRavi]

That is correct. The deal Ravi speaks of expeired after the 2013 season.

That teaches me for not reading that link. I guess Rogers has no money now for anything other than the NHL and Blue Jays baseball.

[mac_davy]

So according to the new contract, rogers cant even televise the game, whats the point of this anymore to them then?

[Invader]

I guess the NFL could schedule the Bills in Toronto game on Thursday night or Thanksgiving? But there it is in black & white, CTV/TSN takes over the 4:00 pm games from Sportsnet and CityTV. This is a real kick in teeth for Rogers who had staked a lot on the NFL... which explains Rogers massive overbidding for NHL TV rights. This shut out TSN, who said they didn't want to pay any more than the $40 million they had been paying for the NHL rights.

This also explains the saturation NFL advertising on the Olympic networks, "The NFL Lives Here!" But no mention of the CFL? I guess TSN is now totally committed to the NFL and perhaps believes the CFL doesn't need any promotion?

TSN has used the popularity of the CFL games to promote the NFL on TSN and CTV. They will rarely promote or even mention Sunday CFL games during CFL broadcasts (while FNF and Sat. games are promoted). TSN runs slickly-produced saturation ads for SNF, MNF and CTV NFL Sunday on CFL telecasts, even if they go head-to-head against a CFL Sunday game (which isn't mentioned). The sad part is TSN is the only media friend the CFL has (had?) CTV and Sportsnet seem to hate the CFL while most other networks largely ignore them.
Maybe if MLSE buys the Argos and with Rogers dumping the NFL, will they become CFL boosters? Yaaaay, Rogers! :love:

[ArgoRavi]

I guess the NFL could schedule the Bills in Toronto game on Thursday night or Thanksgiving? But there it is in black & white, CTV/TSN takes over the 4:00 pm games from Sportsnet and CityTV. This is a real kick in teeth for Rogers who had staked a lot on the NFL... which explains Rogers massive overbidding for NHL TV rights. This shut out TSN, who said they didn't want to pay any more than the $40 million they had been paying for the NHL rights.

This also explains the saturation NFL advertising on the Olympic networks, "The NFL Lives Here!" But no mention of the CFL? I guess TSN is now totally committed to the NFL and perhaps believes the CFL doesn't need any promotion?

TSN has used the popularity of the CFL games to promote the NFL on TSN and CTV. They will rarely promote or even mention Sunday CFL games during CFL broadcasts (while FNF and Sat. games are promoted). TSN runs slickly-produced saturation ads for SNF, MNF and CTV NFL Sunday on CFL telecasts, even if they go head-to-head against a CFL Sunday game (which isn't mentioned). The sad part is TSN is the only media friend the CFL has (had?) CTV and Sportsnet seem to hate the CFL while most other networks largely ignore them.
Maybe if MLSE buys the Argos and with Rogers dumping the NFL, will they become CFL boosters? Yaaaay, Rogers! :love:

I did not see enough of the Olympics on TSN to have noticed any NFL advertising although it would be a little strange that they would be advertising the NFL when we are much closer to the start of the next CFL season. I can say that I noticed a lot of CFL advertising on all Bell media TV stations last year including CTV, MTV (yes, I must admit that I watch that horrid Teen Mom show because my better half puts it on), Comedy, and Discovery Investigation. I would expect similar levels of advertising at least this year, especially with the greater financial investment that Bell/TSN is making in the CFL.

[Ron]

This also explains the saturation NFL advertising on the Olympic networks, "The NFL Lives Here!" But no mention of the CFL? I guess TSN is now totally committed to the NFL and perhaps believes the CFL doesn't need any promotion?

TSN has used the popularity of the CFL games to promote the NFL on TSN and CTV.


It may just come down to advertising products that need the help to garner a big audience. Figuring they don't need a ton of advertising to get CFL numbers up as they have settled at a consistently high level.

[mac_davy]

Given the viewership of a lot of cfl games doubles and even triples the NFL on tsn, They will continue to nurture both products. Having both products on the same network should boost the CFL ratings. Most fans of football will gladly watch both CFL and NFL games, and some of the fair-weather fans that haven't given the clf a chance may actually have it advertised properly to them now. There will most defiantly CFL adds playing during these NFL games, and vise versa, its all good.

[ArgoRavi]

Here is an interesting piece in today's Buffalo News which, if true, should make it a bit easier to pull the plug on this series: http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/03/03/can-bills-make-case-theres-net-gain-toronto-deal/

[argonaut11xx]

Here is an interesting piece in today's Buffalo News which, if true, should make it a bit easier to pull the plug on this series: http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/03/03/can-bills-make-case-theres-net-gain-toronto-deal/

Very interesting Article Ravi....especially like this part....
"Toronto sports fans look down their noses at Buffalo. Toronto is bigger league than Buffalo. " (hmmm, toronto bigger??, CFL smaller??,NFL bigger??buffalo smaller??)
hehe
..is this irony, an oxmoron, ..paulwoods?help....(i just think its so funny, on so many levels)

(it was so much simpler when tonawanda was always dealing with a 3 alarm blaze, the Argo's were king, and we all enjoyed commander Tom)

OH, as an aside, does this mean Tom Gibney beats Irv Weinstien also?

[Ron]

Those awesome 3 alarm fires were always at Main and Filmore.

[Argo57]

Very interesting Article Ravi....especially like this part....
"Toronto sports fans look down their noses at Buffalo. Toronto is bigger league than Buffalo. " (hmmm, toronto bigger??, CFL smaller??,NFL bigger??buffalo smaller??)
hehe
..is this irony, an oxmoron, ..paulwoods?help....(i just think its so funny, on so many levels)

(it was so much simpler when tonawanda was always dealing with a 3 alarm blaze, the Argo's were king, and we all enjoyed commander Tom)

OH, as an aside, does this mean Tom Gibney beats Irv Weinstien also?

The good old days for sure!!
Don't forget Rocketship 7 with Dave Thomas.

[zontar]

Rocketship 7, Commander Tom, weeknight Sabre games, Love that Super Duper, Funnnnn Woooowwww.....

Buffalo is fun (from a distance)

[argotom]

Rocketship 7, Commander Tom, weeknight Sabre games, Love that Super Duper, Funnnnn Woooowwww.....

Buffalo is fun (from a distance)


Yes exactly, the land that time forgot.

[zontar]

Series taking "one year hiatus". What they think is going to change after a year is anyone's guess.

[Neely2005]

BILLS SERIES CHECKING OUT OF TORONTO THIS SEASON:

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=445309



(http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=445309)Russ Brandon, President & CEO of the Buffalo Bills, and Keith Pelley, President of Rogers Media, issued the following statement:
"The Buffalo Bills and Rogers are committed to delivering a first-class NFL experience to Canadians. As such, we have postponed for one year the scheduled 2014 regular season game at Rogers Centre in Toronto, and that game will return to Ralph Wilson Stadium. We will use this time to collectively evaluate opportunities and build on the foundation to enhance future games.
We are committed to continuing our partnership and have secured a robust sponsorship agreement for the 2014 season that will bring Canadian NFL fans visibility and access to the Bills. The sponsorship includes ticketing, merchandising, media exposure, and a newly created Canada House, near Ralph Wilson Stadium, that will serve as the official pre-game Canadian tailgate zone for all Bills home games.
The NFL remains very popular in Canada and we are dedicated to enriching the experience for the fans."



(http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=445309)

[Invader]

I think this quote is particularily telling:

Keith Pelley, President of Rogers Media, issued the following statement:
"The Buffalo Bills and Rogers are committed to delivering a first-class NFL experience to Canadians. As such, we have postponed for one year the scheduled 2014 regular season game at Rogers Centre in Toronto..."lol

[zontar]

...and they announce it the morning of NHL trade deadline day so it gets lost in the vortex of hockey blather.

[Downtownfan]

They waited until Trade Deadline day in the NHL to announce this in an effort to minimize the bad publicity. This series is done, and they will not be playing any more Bills games in Toronto. This is a huge defeat (yes, defeat) for the pro-NFL forces in this city.

Anyone who says that the Bills in Toronto was not a gauge of popularity for a potential NFL franchise (for whatever reason) is full of it. London is at the top of the NFL list because they have sold out every game (with high ticket prices, no home team, etc.); Mexico is closer too because they sold out their game(s). It is actually the only gauge that the NFL cares about, or has evidence of, and it is a complete failure.

Imagine, for instance, that the Phoenix Coyotes played one-eighth of their schedule in Hamilton at Copps Coliseum, and that there was a potential for an ownership change that might eventually lead to Hamilton getting the team-- would those games sell out? You bet your ass they would, as everyone would realize that this was a test of Hamilton's commitment to the NHL. Everyone would know that such a situation was a test for the NHL in Hamilton, just as the Bills in Toronto was a test for the NFL here.

Only completely delusional people (especially in the media, and including Dave Naylor, who is more sensible on this stuff) think that this is not a referendum of the NFL's potential in Toronto. Ask Roger Goddell if he thinks so.

[Downtownfan]

zontar beat me to the NHL deadline day point.

[zontar]

If it proved anything its that TOR has finicky live sports consumers and therefore not particularly exceptional or attractive.
So the NFL cheerleaders insist on claiming TOR should have a team the rational response would be "why , what makes TOR different " ?

[mac_davy]

i cant wait to hear the spin from the usual sources. :bored: Time to move forward with the growth and expansion of the CLF in Canada now.

[Tau Ceti]

Much now depends on Buffalo. The Bills have just put 70,000 tickets back on the market when the team isn't selling out. They need an increase in both attendance and home wins and then the Bills will have a face-saving reason to cancel the deal completely.

[mac_davy]

the spin is already good "enhance the experience" LOL you couldn't have done that in 6 years. The series is done as is the NFL in Toronto, and in spite of what Hunt says "there's a lot of wealthy people in Toronto with deep pockets interested in the NFL" rogers is out the NFL game now, they will say in a year that they are cancelling the series because they are going to put grass in the stadium blah blah, nobody is going to invest 2.5 billion dollars in an apathetic market. Bell/TSN want the CFL and NFL to do very well, and will ensure both products are marketed to complement each other rather than compete, and Bell wont be intersted in backing any NFL expantion to toronto so with no major Canadian network there no expansion. NFL in Toronto is over for the foreseeable future.

[matthew]

Another perspective.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/bills-won-t-play-toronto-least-2014-may-200505116.html

[LLB997]

Another perspective.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/bills-won-t-play-toronto-least-2014-may-200505116.html

Ridiculous article, The crux being that now that the bills are not coming to TO, The security of only 1 game a year for 5 years is now gone leaving the door wide open for a permanent move to Toronto by either an existing or expansion franchise. I see he managed to throw in all the usual suspects in regards to the buzzwords i.e. bon jovi, 95 yrs old, regional relocation yada yada yada.

[ArgoRavi]

I think that Bucholtz is getting a little paranoid. Anyway you slice it, Toronto doesn't look as appealing to the NFL after this Bills in Toronto disaster.

[mac_davy]

Another perspective.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/bills-won-t-play-toronto-least-2014-may-200505116.html

Lets look at the logic and do a simple multiple choice. I sell doughnuts and have several successful doughnut franchises doing well in several cities. A couple of cities have inquired about being part of my franchise. I decide to test the markets and buy two mobile doughnut trucks to visit the new markets. After six years, one of my doughnut trucks in one city didn't break even, i had to give away a ton of my stock, and sales decreased year after year. However another one of my trucks sells out and i can't keep enough stock. What the best option.


A. Pull my truck out and try a new market and expand a franchise to the market that loves the product.
B. invest 2.5 billion in the weak market, because I've been told by some media people, that if i make the doughnuts in the city instead of importing them, then the population will scoop them up, its just they dont feel imported doughnuts are good enough for them.
C. Hide the results of my test and ask Bonjovi to buy my truck.

<cite id="yui_3_9_1_1_1394057523568_1289" class="byline vcard">
</cite>

[paulwoods13]

We can all smugly reassure ourselves that there is no way in hell the NFL will ever come to Toronto, especially after the BiT fiasco, but I don't think it is anywhere near that cut-and-dried. There is no doubt whatsoever that there is serious money in and around Toronto that wants to do it. Is there enough money to pay a franchise fee and build a new stadium? Of course there is. A consortium could easily be assembled to the tune of $2 billion -- this is a massive city with tons of rich people, and an NFL team has never proven to be anything less than a great investment, regardless of cost.

Is the NFL interested in coming to Toronto? Evidence seems to suggest that any interest on its part is at best lukewarm at the moment, and more likely quite cold, but that doesn't mean it is definitively not/never happening, and to assume otherwise is to ignore the fact that big enterprises generally like to make themselves bigger at some point.

I used to say there was no way the NFL would come to Toronto in my lifetime. I now believe there is a very good chance it will get here before I die, and for that reason I am really hoping the MLSE sale goes through so that the Argos and the CFL have both financial and political capital to be kept alive.

[argotom]

It's ever so quiet, where Is Stephen Brunt or Damian Cox with their usual spin how this Is actually a good thing, just like the article LLB posted earlier.

[Fumblitis]

Was there any mention of this story on McCown tonight? Did anybody hear? I wonder if we'll hear crickets from Dan Bilicki in his blog on this issue.

[argolio]

Was there any mention of this story on McCown tonight? Did anybody hear? I wonder if we'll hear crickets from Dan Bilicki in his blog on this issue.McCown had Jerry Sullivan of the Buffalo News on. They both think this means the end of the Bills in Toronto. McCown, who always thought this was a bad idea, believes Rogers easily lost $20 million on this deal, and maybe a lot more than that.

[ArgoRavi]

McCown had Jerry Sullivan of the Buffalo News on. They both think this means the end of the Bills in Toronto. McCown, who always thought this was a bad idea, believes Rogers easily lost $20 million on this deal, and maybe a lot more than that.

Was Brunt around for this interview?

[paulwoods13]

Since the journalists covering this story have come under attack on this forum, I'd love to know what posters think of the journalism surrounding the announcement that the series has been put "on hiatus for a year." Here are links to two pieces in particular:


http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/2014/03/05/postponement_of_buffalo_bills_toronto_game_stay_of _execution_is_more_like_it.html

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/05/bills-in-toronto-series-shelved-but-source-says-it-will-resume-for-four-more-years

[Argo]

IMHO... due to population and demographics, and the general tendency of the Canadian dollar to be far less than par vs. the greenback, the NFL in Toronto cannot possibly succeed... for, essentially, anyone.
Consider Joe Fan, and even less plausibly, Joe Fan and Family: ticket(s) utterly unaffordable.
What about the Maple Leaves, you ask? No, folks, equivalence is not there.
If the Bills in Toronto has proven to be a fiasco - and it most certainly has - the NFL in Toronto would become a miserable failure. Toronto, to the Empire That Is The NFL, has no absolute and no relative upside.

[Argo]

...Rogers easily lost $20 million on this deal, and maybe a lot more than that.

Gee, that's a shame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKm5xQyD2vE).

[paulwoods13]

What about the Maple Leaves, you ask?

They're playing with the Montreal Canadians and the Edmonton Esquimaults.

[argonaut11xx]

The "Bill's in Toronto" series, has basically done what the "Montreal Machine" did to that city. Its pretty much destroyed any opportunity to gain an NFL franchise.

The even better upside, is that now Toronto is considered "Bill's" Territory, so even the chance to move an NFL franchise to the GTA would have serious infringement penalties added to the already costly prospect.

The biggest fear, is that lease deal the Bill's have, year 6 (i think) has a cheap "out" clause....so if old man Wilson dies prior, then a local group COULD purchase the team and move them to Toronto in 2020.

[argonaut11xx]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er Richardhead

[Neely2005]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er Richardhead

Lol at paid attendance. Paid by Rogers.

Also his math skills seem to be in question with his three times figure:

Here's last season's attendance for games at Rogers Centre:

29,852
18,211
20,064
19,656
21,157
18,863
28,467
18,478
22,589
35,418 (Playoff Game)

Average attendance: 23,276
Average regular season attendance: 21,926

And last season had one of the worst home schedules ever.

[Argo]

They're playing with the Montreal Canadians and the Edmonton Esquimaults.

Heh! Off topic, but speaking of the "Maple Leaves"... I see that elusive Stanley Cup finally won again the next time Jim Morrison and The Doors have a #1 hit named "Light My Fire". It's a sure thing, though it may yet take a while, and/or require the Multiverse.

[Fumblitis]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er RichardheadMan that sounds like a hostile slam against the Argos. That show comes on at 7 pm local time I gotta hear that. Even in defeat they still slam the CFL...wow!

[Argo]

Even in defeat they still slam the CFL...wow!

Perceptive!

[Ballstothewall]

Since the journalists covering this story have come under attack on this forum, I'd love to know what posters think of the journalism surrounding the announcement that the series has been put "on hiatus for a year." Here are links to two pieces in particular:


http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/2014/03/05/postponement_of_buffalo_bills_toronto_game_stay_of _execution_is_more_like_it.html

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/05/bills-in-toronto-series-shelved-but-source-says-it-will-resume-for-four-more-years

Interesting, that in the Star story, the writter mentions how Rogers plays the media in this city with even the timing of this announcement


Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er Richardhead

Wow, I expected more from the former CEO of the Argos. I remember talking to him at games and he was yelling and screaming, he told me running the Argos is the biggest thrill of his life, because he was such a fan of the team and the whole league, man that changed once Rogers got a hold of him, so sad. I would send him a tweet on how disappointed some of us are about that comment, which by the way is B.S, even McCown said in all, 18,000 tickets were really paid for

[LLB997]

Pelley is a joke. Where is the integrity when answering a question as to why the Bills failed his response is "Hey we did better than the Argos". Literally digging at a Franchise that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Bills series. About as classless as it gets.
And trying to hype the NFL as "The Event", please , i was at the superbowl party this year for a few nights and events and the Superbowl Blvd wth its plastic toboggan run and free papa johns slices was an absolute laugher. No NFL fantasy, just teams uniforms displayed in Macy's perfume dept. lol. The 100th GC i thought was good when it was on but in retrospect am amazed what a phenomenal job the CFL did after the Shiteshow that was Superbowl 48. DO NOT BELIEVE THE HYPE. sorry for ranting.

[Invader]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er Richardhead

Fellow employee Damien Cox used the same attendance number on PTS, saying the Argos averaged only 13,000 fans in 2012 (he said this on the Monday after the Argos GC100 win, I believe), intimating he had some inside knowledge which confirmed this, "I know" he smirked with Brunt nodding along and chuckling. That's probably the official Rogers "talking point" when referring about the Argos. Similarly, Cox's quote that the Argos are losing $6 million per season has been considered official by the media, perhaps because there has been no rebuttal from the Argos denying this claim.

Let's not forget that Rogers hates the Argos guts, so to speak, and nothing could be plainer. Not sure why this is, but as a Argo fan I'd be very concerned about Rogers being the guiding force behind the team. We might hope Bell and Tanenbaum would be a lucid counter-balance but they seem to be silent partners in the triumvirate with Rogers dominating the conversation.

[argolio]

Was Brunt around for this interview?No, Michael Grange.

Gotta say, McCown has been trashing Rogers over the whole deal about as much as he can get away with the last two days. He told Pelley they'd never see eye-to-eye on this.

For his part, Dave Naylor said he was told the long-term plan was to eventually go from 1 game in Toronto to 2, then 4, and finally a permanent move. That plan is now obviously dead.

[ArgoGabe22]

Facts are facts but I'm not so sure Pelley really had to insert that line on the Argos.

[Neely2005]

Facts are facts but I'm not so sure Pelley really had to insert that line on the Argos.

Well his "facts" are wrong.

[rdavies]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er RichardheadGlad you noticed that as well. Was very surprised at this cheapshot especially coming from him. He was really taken aback at the interview, trying to spin the Bills failure. Grange was your typical Rogers kissass spinning the story like a guy doing plates on Ed Sullivan.

McCown was laying it into Rogers but he does it in that old Arthur Godfrey type way where he can get away with it.

Is there one "journalist" in Toronto aside from McCown who has the cajones to go against Rogers. There used to be a time when reporters were rebels not corporate hos and shills.

[zontar]

Weird, because I thought any anti-CFL bias from Rogers was a product of one's imagination.

[Fumblitis]

Glad you noticed that as well. Was very surprised at this cheapshot especially coming from him. He was really taken aback at the interview, trying to spin the Bills failure. Grange was your typical Rogers kissass spinning the story like a guy doing plates on Ed Sullivan.

McCown was laying it into Rogers but he does it in that old Arthur Godfrey type way where he can get away with it.

Is there one "journalist" in Toronto aside from McCown who has the cajones to go against Rogers. There used to be a time when reporters were rebels not corporate hos and shills.I got to admit I thought McCown would tow the line and come up with a lame excuse as well. It surprised me hear him repeatedly rip Pelley over the Bills fiasco.

[Neely2005]

McCown had Jerry Sullivan of the Buffalo News on. They both think this means the end of the Bills in Toronto. McCown, who always thought this was a bad idea, believes Rogers easily lost $20 million on this deal, and maybe a lot more than that.

Here's the Audio from that interview:

Mar
5

Listen (http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/pt_20140305_191238--Prime-Time-Sports---March-5---6pm.mp3) Prime Time Sports - March 5 - 6pm
Wednesday, 6 pm: Jerry Sullivan and Richard Deitsch

[Neely2005]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything.

what a typical rogers Dick, um er Richardhead

Here's the Audio from the Pelley interview:

Listen (http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/pt_20140306_175459--Prime-Time-Sports---March-6th---5pm.mp3) Prime Time Sports - March 6th - 5pm
March 6th, 5 pm: Hockey Night In Canada analyst Glenn Healy and Rogers Broadcasting President, Keith Pelley.

[Neely2005]

I got to admit I thought McCown would tow the line and come up with a lame excuse as well. It surprised me hear him repeatedly rip Pelley over the Bills fiasco.

I think that McCown has always been pretty honest in his opinions. I've never understood the people who said that he towed the corporate line. He's also been saying for Decades that the NFL won't work in Toronto.

[rdavies]

Keith Pelley just said on the fan590, that ...im paraphrasing...

"The 36,000 paid seats for the last bills game was still 3 times the amount of paid seats the defending grey cup champions Argo's get"

Pelley sure knows where his dinner hangs...these Rogers hacks will say just about anything. what a typical rogers Dick, um er Richardheadhttp://i62.tinypic.com/2n17x29.jpg

Feel free to share image... at every opportunity

[Neely2005]

http://i62.tinypic.com/2n17x29.jpg

Feel free to share image... at every opportunity

I'd have to disagree with that. Ted Rogers was very pro Canada and a very proud Canadian.

[LLB997]

I'd have to disagree with that. Ted Rogers was very pro Canada and a very proud Canadian.

sounds like u knew the man

[Neely2005]

sounds like u knew the man

No I never met him but I've worked in the industry for a long time so I've spoken to a few people who knew him. I also know people who work at Rogers and they say that it's not quite the same company since he passed away.

[VANRIDERFAN]

I'd have to disagree with that. Ted Rogers was very pro Canada and a very proud Canadian.

Seems like he was a man who just did not want to support the CFL.

[argotom]

Gee, that's a shame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKm5xQyD2vE).

It's more like $20M per game on top of the $78M paid.

[argotom]

Glad you noticed that as well. Was very surprised at this cheapshot especially coming from him. He was really taken aback at the interview, trying to spin the Bills failure. Grange was your typical Rogers kissass spinning the story like a guy doing plates on Ed Sullivan.

McCown was laying it into Rogers but he does it in that old Arthur Godfrey type way where he can get away with it.

Is there one "journalist" in Toronto aside from McCown who has the cajones to go against Rogers. There used to be a time when reporters were rebels not corporate hos and shills.

As much as some of us have given it to McCown for the way he has treated the Argos and the CFL, I m glad he reportedly said that as this has been his m/o for all of the years.

[Neely2005]

Seems like he was a man who just did not want to support the CFL.

Well if he wanted to he could have kicked the Argonauts out of the Rogers Centre and that would have pretty much killed them.

[rdavies]

they say that it's not quite the same company since he passed away.My point exactly. Yes, Ted was an ok guy, but the NFL push began under his watch and his company has benefited greatly from a regulated Canadian industry. And for them to try to bring in something foreign that is detrimental to a Canadian institution, is not on, Ted or no Ted, may he rest in peace.

[OV Argo]

Not sure it is recognized enough - what the Argos have been up against for so long: either anti-CFLers or those who ignore or show lack of respect for the CFL - in the media (McCown, Simmons, maybe Brunt (though he obviously has his supporters here) types and all the other snickering little wannabes there), Rogers and all the NFL for TO pushers, the "major league" / "world class" set in joe average sports fandom out there who look down their noses or mock the CFL/Argos. Now we're good with some corporate scum-bags to the rescue as Argo owner/saviours ?

Tough road, but ... shove it sideways to all those clowns and wannabes ... the Arrrrrgoooos = since 1873 - best football team out there and accept no substitutes !!!

[argolio]

I think that McCown has always been pretty honest in his opinions. I've never understood the people who said that he towed the corporate line. He's also been saying for Decades that the NFL won't work in Toronto.He hasn't been saying it won't work, but that it won't happen.


It's more like $20M per game on top of the $78M paid.That would be impossible.


Another thing McCowan said was that the renewal was for far less than $10 million a game. That makes sense for Rogers, but I don't get why the Bills settled for less.

[Ron]

Seems like he was a man who just did not want to support the CFL.

Ya, all those years that Rogers was a major CFL sponsor (and at a time when it was really hard for the CFL to get anyone) were because Ted wouldn't support it.

People take the easy way out and blame Ted for stuff his underlings did. Ted was just a guy that wanted two main things. Get him market share and make him money. His underlings showed him that the Bills series will make him a lot of both. It would have been interesting to watch if Ted was still alive when the 5 year deal ended and he got neither.

[Ron]

My point exactly. Yes, Ted was an ok guy, but the NFL push began under his watch and his company has benefited greatly from a regulated Canadian industry. And for them to try to bring in something foreign that is detrimental to a Canadian institution, is not on, Ted or no Ted, may he rest in peace.

NFL push? What push?

Detrimental? How has the Bills series been detrimental to the CFL or the Argos in any way?

[OV Argo]

NFL push? What push?

Detrimental? How has the Bills series been detrimental to the CFL or the Argos in any way?


Exactly - it's been just great for the Argos; so was good old Teddy. Got any other feeble tedbits?

[Argo]

Not sure it is recognized enough - what the Argos have been up against for so long: either anti-CFLers or those who ignore or show lack of respect for the CFL - in the media (McCown, Simmons, maybe Brunt (though he obviously has his supporters here) types and all the other snickering little wannabes there), Rogers and all the NFL for TO pushers, the "major league" / "world class" set in joe average sports fandom out there who look down their noses or mock the CFL/Argos. Now we're good with some corporate scum-bags to the rescue as Argo owner/saviours ?

Tough road, but ... shove it sideways to all those clowns and wannabes ... the Arrrrrgoooos = since 1873 - best football team out there and accept no substitutes !!!

The fact that these media drones / shills have jobs is the interesting phenomenon, i.e., our society should take a look in its cultural and intellectual mirror.

"The dogs bark, the caravan passes".

It's the Argos' responsibility to advance the team's agenda and be heard above the noise, even in unsympathetic or downright hostile territory.

(The recent cheerleaders' video was a good example of using an alternative marketing channel.)

[rdavies]

(The recent cheerleaders' video was a good example of using an alternative marketing channel.)And that's one of the things to do in a hostile media marketplace. What we call media now is not what passed for media when I was in the biz 20 years ago. Actual news reporting is dying, there isn't enough actual news to cover the black on a 24 hour news channel, that's where the scourge of infotainment and the cult of celebrity has come in.

It's war for the Argos, and they have to stop being Chamberlains and start being Churchills. Screw the "mainstream media" and create your own "channels" because these guys ain't gonna help ya.

[rdavies]

AP source: Bills could identify owner within three months (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/-nfl-draft/news/20140503/bills-sale-new-owner-three-months.ap/#ixzz30hJbM7z2)

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) - The Buffalo Bills could identify a new owner within three months, leading Gov. Andrew Cuomo's stepping up the state's efforts to secure the franchise's long-term future in the region.

A person familiar with the sale process told The Associated Press on Saturday there is an anticipation that the Bills' could be sold by July, and the sale approved by NFL owners as early as the league's meetings in October. The same person and another person also told the AP that at least one prospective ownership group has already toured potential new stadium locations in Buffalo.

Both people spoke on condition of anonymity because the sale process has not been made public.

The person would not identify which ownership group toured the city, what sites were viewed or who provided the tour.

The Bills' future in Buffalo is uncertain after team owner and founder Ralph Wilson died in March. Wilson's estate is in the process of hiring an investment banking firm that would oversee the sale of the team, which is expected to go to the highest bidder.

The updated timetable has led Cuomo to speed up the state's involvement in protecting its interests in preventing the Bills from relocating. The state intends to hire a consulting firm over the next week to produce a report within three months that would be issued to prospective owners. The report would identify potential stadium sites and outline public financing options that would be made available.

That firm would work with sports business attorney Irwin Raij, whose contract was extended last month, to represent the state during the sale process.

Raij specializes in stadium development projects and lease agreements. In 2012, he represented New York in negotiating the Bills' 10-year lease that included a strict non-relocation clause that makes it difficult for the team to move before the 2020 season.

The firm would produce its report ahead of the ''New Stadium Working Group,'' a committee made up of public and private leaders, including Bills executives. The group has already met twice over the past month and is responsible for making recommendations whether a new stadium or renovations to the team's current home best fit the franchise's needs to remain viable in Buffalo once the lease expires in 2023.

The working group is expected to take six months or longer before making its recommendations, well after the team could be sold.

Cuomo is intent on making sure a framework of a plan is in place much sooner, Lt. Gov. Robert Duffy told the AP during a visit through the region Friday.

''The governor wants to be prepared if there are any earlier offers to buy the team,'' Duffy said. ''Our team is looking at sites now in Erie County, Buffalo, Niagara County. We're just being prepared because we don't know who the next owner will be. We're not sure what the goals and the objectives of the next ownership team will be.''

[argotom]

I have been saying for quite some time, it is the political will in New York state and to include in Washington that will not allow the Bills to leave anywhere, much less to Toronto.

[DanoT]

I have been saying for quite some time, it is the political will in New York state and to include in Washington that will not allow the Bills to leave anywhere, much less to Toronto.

AND since the Bills in Toronto Series has firmly established Southern Ontario as part of the Buffalo Bills fan base/operating tertitory, as long as there is a NFL team in Buffalo then that team will have a major say (franchise veto vote) before any NFL team can set up shop in Toronto.

Thank you Ralph Wilson for outsmarting Ted Rogers and thus playing a major role before passing away of keeping the NFL in Buffalo and not Toronto in the future. Mr. Wilson was helped in part by appathetic football fans in Toronto who proved that interest in the NFL in TO is a mile wide but only an inch deep.

At this point only a very wealthy guy with more money than brains would invest billions to get a NFL team in TO. The concern is that there are a few of those wealthy, foolish, big ego guys around, but the Bills have at least made it more difficult for TO rich guys to get their way.

[zontar]

NFL to TOR idea has been around how long and they're just now getting around to tour potential sites ? Right.

[Downtownfan]

I think we need to prepare ourselves for the bitterness that the NFL in Toronto/anti-Argos crowd is going to be undoubtedly exhibiting in the next little while. As things develop, there will likely be an announcement by May 15 that the Argos will be moving into BMO; then, likely an announcement by July of a new owner for the Bills who will keep the team in Buffalo (and with TO as Bills territory, little chance for NFL expansion here); then, a good season attendance wise for the Argos (owing to a much better schedule), followed by the move to move to an expanded BMO which will be real shot in the arm for the franchise; then, eventually, MLSE buying the Argos and securing their future, and likely announcing dates for the a future Grey Cup at BMO.

The anti-Argos crowd will have gone from a "Bills are coming to Toronto! Its inevitable!" to facing the reality that MLSE owns the Argos, they are successful at BMO, and the NFL won't be coming to Toronto for years to come. There will be a lot of hatred and hateful comments spewed the Argos way by the dead-enders.

[DanoT]

I think we need to prepare ourselves for the bitterness that the NFL in Toronto/anti-Argos crowd is going to be undoubtedly exhibiting in the next little while. As things develop, there will likely be an announcement by May 15 that the Argos will be moving into BMO; then, likely an announcement by July of a new owner for the Bills who will keep the team in Buffalo (and with TO as Bills territory, little chance for NFL expansion here); then, a good season attendance wise for the Argos (owing to a much better schedule), followed by the move to move to an expanded BMO which will be real shot in the arm for the franchise; then, eventually, MLSE buying the Argos and securing their future, and likely announcing dates for the a future Grey Cup at BMO.

The anti-Argos crowd will have gone from a "Bills are coming to Toronto! Its inevitable!" to facing the reality that MLSE owns the Argos, they are successful at BMO, and the NFL won't be coming to Toronto for years to come. There will be a lot of hatred and hateful comments spewed the Argos way by the dead-enders.


I wouldn't worry about a few disgruntled NFL fans because they proved that there really are too few NFL fans in TO. The Bills in Toronto Series was a market research test and Toronto's NFL fans failed miserably.

[zontar]

Difficult to imagine NFL pulling the rug out from underneath the efforts of NY govt with a heavyweight like Cuomo and Schumer and aproving sale to Rogers etc. so soon.

If a CDN group doesnt win the apologies will be along the lines of "the fix was in", "anti-CDA bias", "NFL's arm was twisted by gov't" "we had the best bid but process was biased". Book it.

[jerrym]

At this point only a very wealthy guy with more money than brains would invest billions to get a NFL team in TO. The concern is that there are a few of those wealthy, foolish, big ego guys around, but the Bills have at least made it more difficult for TO rich guys to get their way.

Fortunately, we have already seen a wealthy guy (or more accurately corporation) with more money than brains lose a major investment in trying to do this. It would take even less brains to try it again, but this doesn't mean it won't happen.

[D-Gap-Willie]

I think we need to prepare ourselves for the bitterness that the NFL in Toronto/anti-Argos crowd is going to be undoubtedly exhibiting in the next little while. As things develop, there will likely be an announcement by May 15 that the Argos will be moving into BMO; then, likely an announcement by July of a new owner for the Bills who will keep the team in Buffalo (and with TO as Bills territory, little chance for NFL expansion here); then, a good season attendance wise for the Argos (owing to a much better schedule), followed by the move to move to an expanded BMO which will be real shot in the arm for the franchise; then, eventually, MLSE buying the Argos and securing their future, and likely announcing dates for the a future Grey Cup at BMO.

The anti-Argos crowd will have gone from a "Bills are coming to Toronto! Its inevitable!" to facing the reality that MLSE owns the Argos, they are successful at BMO, and the NFL won't be coming to Toronto for years to come. There will be a lot of hatred and hateful comments spewed the Argos way by the dead-enders.
Of course, the only way to overcome the animosity of the spurned NFL wannabees is to convince them of the truth. However that truth is far too unpalatable; the truth is that the NFL does not want to be in Toronto, and has never wanted to be in Toronto. The NFL has never in any way encouraged the thought of a team in Toronto. They have also not discouraged the thought, since to do so would be a public relations nightmare.
But think about it. Would you want a team where.
1) Television revenues would actually be reduced by adding that team, unless no games are broadcast from TO and no games are broadcast where TO is a participant. Americans do not want to watch a team from Canada, as affirmed by Blue Jays stats.
2) Gate revenues where a Toronto team plays in a US city would be weakened, similar to television revenues.
3) There would be no incremental gain from merchandise sales in the USA.
4) The Toronto team would be operating in CDN dollars which are at the mercy of broad market fluctuations.
5) Any team playing in Toronto needs to clear customs (twice) with all its gear. This is nowhere near as simple as clearing a few bags of bats, gloves and balls as for a Blue Jays visitor.
6) The NFL would no longer be operating under the umbrella of Washington, with its fragile anti- trust protection.
I could go on -- the point is that there is absolutely no upside for the NFL to expand to Toronto or to allow a team to move to Toronto. The wannabees should realize that they are unwanted.

[AngeloV]

the truth is that the NFL does not want to be in Toronto, and has never wanted to be in Toronto.

I have been saying this for a long time. Toronto didn't just become a big market recently. If the NFL wanted to be here, they would have been here long ago.

[mac_davy]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/07/nfl-commissioner-says-league-wants-right-ownership-to-keep-bills-successful-in-western-new-york

Do you think this will sink into the TO media, how much clearer can this be.

[DanoT]

EXTRA BONUS: NFL comish Godell is from Western N.Y. So the Bills won't be leaving during his watch.

[LLB997]

EXTRA BONUS: NFL comish Godell is from Western N.Y. So the Bills won't be leaving during his watch.

yes, and the bills situation will be all bundled up nicely under Godells watch. Good legacy to end his tenure.

[Argo]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/bon-jovi-part-of-toronto-group-looking-to-buy-buffalo-bills-1.1920642

[Qman]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/bon-jovi-part-of-toronto-group-looking-to-buy-buffalo-bills-1.1920642

Even the biggest NFL cheerleaders in the city believe this it will not happen:
- NFL doesn't favour group bids, they want one rich guy - Strike one
- A bunch of these super rich guys are from New York state and want to keep it in western NY - Strike Two
- state has indicated it will bend over and lube up for anyone who will keep the team in new york state, no public money in TO - Strike Three

[VANRIDERFAN]

I just cannot imagine your Premier or whomever the mayor will be trying to sell the idea to the good people of Toronto and Ontario that they need to pony up money to build a shrine to one of the richest leagues on the planet. I cannot see that happening at all.

[1argoholic]

I"M F'ING FED UP AND SICK OF THE 25 PLUS YEARS OF NFL IN TO BULLSHITE! I could care less and just another swift kick in the bag to Argo fans when we're at such a low point in the teams history. Oh and Braley you SUCK you greedy piece of crap.

[argotom]

When a story is not a story.
Two New York state billionaires as well as the NFL commish and politicians in general will not let this happen.
Let's blow up this thread.

[Tau Ceti]

Agreed. Where is the "blow up this thread" button?

[ArgoRavi]

The Toronto Sun has speculated recently that this Toronto group would keep the team in the Buffalo area, if they were to be the successful bidder, simply because that is the only real option. The NFL isn't coming to Toronto anytime soon, folks, whether this group is successful, which I doubt they will be, or not.

[Gill The Thrill]

Agreed. Where is the "blow up this thread" button?

Woo hoo, he blew up real good...Where is Big Jim McBob and Billy Sol Hurock from SCTV when you need them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOIConf3wNI


The Toronto Sun has speculated recently that this Toronto group would keep the team in the Buffalo area, if they were to be the successful bidder, simply because that is the only real option. The NFL isn't coming to Toronto anytime soon, folks, whether this group is successful, which I doubt they will be, or not.

I don`t think they will be successful as they are going up against a lot of heavy hitters....I`d put the Donald as in Trump on the front of my list, however Terry Pegula, the owner of the Sabres is proven to be a local who`ll put his money where his mouth is.

Rogers is a small time player in the US...even amongst US cable companies like Time Warner, Rogers is viewed as small time.

Anyways how is this story different to what we`ve heard anyway...I guess now it`s official because AP is reporting, but it`s really no surprise.

[argos1873]

If the NFL wanted NFL football in Canada, it would have happened long ago. Its not because someone can't afford it or any rules about ownership. If the NFL wants it, they will get it. They don't want it, and they don't need it. Foolish.

[DanTheFan]

Won't happen. I'm a Bears fan now. They know I wouldn't support this team. They hold my opinion in high esteem.

[Ron]

Oh and Braley you SUCK you greedy piece of crap.

You realize you're only calling Braley greedy because you believe media reports from dudes that want the NFL to come to Toronto.

[LLB997]

bring on the Toronto Rough Priders

[DanoT]

I"M F'ING FED UP AND SICK OF THE 25 PLUS YEARS OF NFL IN TO BULLSHITE! I could care less and just another swift kick in the bag to Argo fans when we're at such a low point in the teams history. Oh and Braley you SUCK you greedy piece of crap.

As a Lions fan I can tell you that Braley is considered the saviour of the franchise in B.C. He had to pump lots of his own $ into the team and absorb loses before finally making any $. And they are not all that profitable as actual return on investment is not causing anyone to break down the doors to line up and buy the Lions.

The previous Argo owners are the ones to point a carpet bagging finger at imo

Also it is pretty hard to be greedy when you own a team that doesn't have enough ticket buying fans and there are mo other billionaires stepping up to own the team.

[1argoholic]

Dude has given up and not doing anything. He wanted future money from all Toronto Grey Cups as part of a sale term. That is greed. I'm done with thanking this guy, those days are done. He is now sinking the franchise. The whole scene in TO is a mess. They'll be showing his face during the game tonight. Argo fans barely know what this guy looks like.

In my mind if they do end up at BMO that is a huge step backward and the second coming of the mistake by the lake as they called CNE Stadium. Fall games when wind and pissing rain come off the lake are SHITE! Been there done that drunken sloppy crap and to go back would blow. Not sure I'd have seasons for that. I sat though the 82 Grey Cup (Toilet Bowl) in the uncovered endzone. What a wet crappy gongshow that was. Many other horrible games that are drilled into my head.

Still difficult to imagine that no seriously rich Argo fan Torontonian has stepped up. They should have went with Hazel and her Trillium Dome in Mississauga back in the day instead of Skydome. The Argos would have done well and making money because Hazel has Mississauga as one of the richest muni's in North America. She just states that she doesn't believe in debt. All water under the bridge and the Argos haven't been run very well historically.

[DanoT]

Dude has given up and not doing anything. He wanted future money from all Toronto Grey Cups as part of a sale term. That is greed. I'm done with thanking this guy, those days are done. He is now sinking the franchise. The whole scene in TO is a mess. They'll be showing his face during the game tonight. Argo fans barely know what this guy looks like.

In my mind if they do end up at BMO that is a huge step backward and the second coming of the mistake by the lake as they called CNE Stadium. Fall games when wind and pissing rain come off the lake are SHITE! Been there done that drunken sloppy crap and to go back would blow. Not sure I'd have seasons for that. I sat though the 82 Grey Cup (Toilet Bowl) in the uncovered endzone. What a wet crappy gongshow that was. Many other horrible games that are drilled into my head.

Still difficult to imagine that no seriously rich Argo fan Torontonian has stepped up. They should have went with Hazel and her Trillium Dome in Mississauga back in the day instead of Skydome. The Argos would have done well and making money because Hazel has Mississauga as one of the richest muni's in North America. She just states that she doesn't believe in debt. All water under the bridge and the Argos haven't been run very well historically.


The Comish is on record as wanting the Argos to move to BMO field BUT if it is as bad as you say it is then maybe Braley is doing the right thing by not laying down for MLSE and selling at their price.

Since you admit no rich Argo fan Torontonian has (or ever will) step up and buy the Argos maybe a seriously rich CFL fan from Hamilton will step up and pay the Argos bills...oh wait he already has.

BTW if BMO Field is no good, where would you have your imaginary Toronto Argo fan Billionaire build his stadium with his own money?

[argonaut11xx]

Right now i'd say Braley and Sherwood Schwartz are neck and neck for the worst Argo owners of my lifetime

[rdavies]

This is getting interesting now. We are now entering into the realm of lying. Are we now to believe that Tannenbaum and Rogers want to run a franchise in New York state (if not Buffalo proper). If this isn't a bid for a Toronto NFL team why are the two "Canadians" involved? Or is this the opening salvo in an expansion bid whereby this bid is just to show they are good little frat boys patiently waiting to be initiated into the club.

Bon Jovi boycott in Buffalo should have a twin Rogers boycott in Canada.

Bon Jovi intends to keep Bills in Buffalo (http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl/bon-jovi-intends-to-keep-bills-in-buffalo/)
Associated Press August 3, 2014

CANTON, Ohio — Jon Bon Jovi is hoping he’s written a hit with Buffalo Bills fans in a bid to stem concerns of whether his prospective ownership group plans to buy and potentially relocate the franchise to Toronto.

In a letter published by the Buffalo News on Sunday, Bon Jovi wrote that it’s his ownership group’s objective "to make the Bills successful in Buffalo." The letter, titled "Why We’re Bidding on the Buffalo Bills," marks the first time the New Jersey rocker has publicly discussed his plans regarding the franchise.

The team is for sale after Hall of Fame owner Ralph Wilson died in March.

"There has been a lot of conjecture, so we think it’s important to clarify our intentions to the fans of the team and people of Buffalo," Bon Jovi wrote. "I know how much the Bills mean to the people of this region. So I want you to hear this from me: I’m not risking it all to let you down. If we are given the chance to be the next owners of the Buffalo Bills, I promise you that we will bring the same passion that you do every Sunday, every day."

Calling it his intention to "carry on Ralph Wilson’s legacy" in Buffalo, Bon Jovi said his group is committed to working with state and local officials and the business community to identify a new stadium site in the region.

At no point in the seven-paragraph letter does Bon Jovi name his two partners or mention they are both from Toronto. His group is rounded out by Larry Tanenbaum, chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, and the Rogers family which controls Rogers Communications.

The Toronto group’s intentions have been met with skepticism in Buffalo.

Two weeks ago, Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz told The Associated Press that he has no doubts regarding the group’s long-term intentions to move the team to Toronto.

Under their lease that runs through the 2022, the Bills are essentially locked into playing at Ralph Wilson Stadium through the 2019 season. There is a one-time exception that would allow them to break the agreement for just under $28.4 million in 2020.

The deal also includes a strict non-relocation clause in which the Bills — including Wilson’s estate — are not allowed to negotiate with anyone, who to their knowledge, has an intention of relocating the team during the term of the lease.

The Bills Fan Alliance, a group of fans and business leaders, questioned Bon Jovi’s intentions in a statement released Sunday.

"While we appreciate his sentiment, it’s worth noting that nowhere in his letter does he write or directly state that he will ‘not move the Bills from Buffalo,"’ wrote the Alliance’s directors, Matt Sabuda, Brian Cinelli and Steve Brady.

The group urged Bon Jovi to back up his statements with actions by signing a binding pre-purchase agreement to waive the one-year buyout clause.

"Anything short of formal action taken on their part will be viewed as nothing more than rhetoric," the Alliance directors wrote.

Fans have also organized a ban on Bon Jovi music being played in Buffalo. The group has printed T-shirts and posters with the motto: "Bon Jovi Free Zone."

Numerous fans were spotted wearing the shirts and carrying placards at the Pro Football Hall of Fame ceremonies on Saturday night, when former Bills receiver Andre Reed was among the seven inductees.

Reed is a member of the Fan Alliance. He drew cheers during his induction speech by saying: "Oh yeah, and the Bills will stay in Buffalo, too."

NHL Buffalo Sabres owner Terry and Kim Pegula and New York real estate mogul Donald Trump are also in the running to buy the Bills.

Prospective groups are set to begin making formal bids to buy the team in the coming weeks. A potential owner could be identified by as early as Labor Day.

The Bills most recently were valued by Forbes at $870 million but are expected to sell for at least $1 billion, partly because NFL teams rarely go on the market.

In his letter, Bon Jovi noted his interest in buying an NFL franchise grew when he founded the Philadelphia Soul of the Arena Football League. He sold his interests in the team a few years ago.

"My family and I are prepared to make this life-changing commitment to be part of the Bills," Bon Jovi wrote. "This is not a hobby or an acquisition. Building a winner on and off the field will be job one, and I intend to spend as much time on the ground in Buffalo as needed to accomplish that goal."

[argotom]

There is no chance of this happening as BJ and his so called group will not win and in fact everything I read is they have the least amount of cash in the bid.
Likely have not made it to the next round.
Like having said many times before and for those in the know, the NFL commish and the politicians will NOT allow the team to leave.

[ArgoRavi]

There is no chance of this happening as BJ and his so called group will not win and in fact everything I read is they have the least amount of cash in the bid.
Likely have not made it to the next round.
Like having said many times before and for those in the know, the NFL commish and the politicians will NOT allow the team to leave.

Furthermore, Bon Jovi and friends have to say that they will keep the team in the Buffalo area. If they say otherwise, they are automatically disqualified from the process IIRC. I really doubt that this letter will change many minds in the Buffalo area about what the ultimate goals are of Bon Jovi and his Toronto friends.

[Ron]

If I was a Bills fan I'd be more worried about Trump than Jovi

[Gill The Thrill]

Bon Jovi may not need to tour Buffalo anymore as he has a love affair with performing at the ACC, but he does want to sell more records and CD's in Western New York. Remember he is a musician, first and foremost who wants to push his product. The bad PR can't be helping sales....we have not seen a good record burning since Disco Demolition night at Comiskey Park in 1979, or all those Beatle records being burned in the southern US Bible Belt.

Could you imagine Buffalo dj's asking Bills fans to bring your Bo Jovi Cd's and vinyl records to Niagara square or the Ralph...lol


There is no chance of this happening as BJ and his so called group will not win and in fact everything I read is they have the least amount of cash in the bid.
Likely have not made it to the next round.
Like having said many times before and for those in the know, the NFL commish and the politicians will NOT allow the team to leave.I've heard that too...if the Bills were to move, there would be no NFL team that would be playing in New York State as the Jets and Giants share a stadium in New Jersey.

[paulwoods13]

Musicians, especially "stadium rockers" like Bon Jovi, make most of their money these days from live performance. I really doubt that Bon Jovi is worried about a threat to CD sales in upstate New York.

[argolio]

These stories that the bid of Bon Jovi's group is far behind Pegula's may be true, but I'm not believing anything until this whole thing is over.

[R.J]

http://deadspin.com/report-bon-jovis-bills-bid-rejected-for-being-too-low-1616532634?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitte r&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[ArgoRavi]

http://deadspin.com/report-bon-jovis-bills-bid-rejected-for-being-too-low-1616532634?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitte r&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

It truly is time for these folks to give up on the NFL in Toronto nonsense. There was a poll a week or two ago on CFTO which had interesting results. Obviously, it was not a scientific poll by any means but only about a third of those participating in the poll want the Bills in Toronto. The other two-thirds do not. I think that the NFL in Toronto people overestimate the appetite for live NFL football in Toronto and it would be wise for them to give up on that and focus on more productive endeavours that could really help the city.

[Argocister]

.......... and focus on more productive endeavours that could really help the city.

Cough.....cough.....hhmmmmm..... I would doubt that part of your statement ever enters their mind. ......perhaps other endeavours that can get them dollars and notoriety .

[argolio]

In the latest twist, Forbes says no one bid over a billion: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2014/08/10/all-offers-for-buffalo-bills-below-1-billion/

If true, this thing is far from over.

[ArgoRavi]

In the latest twist, Forbes says no one bid over a billion: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2014/08/10/all-offers-for-buffalo-bills-below-1-billion/

If true, this thing is far from over.

I think that the only way the Bon Jovi group can be successful here is if they sign some kind of binding agreement saying that they won't move the Bills within the next 10 years. Regardless of who has bid what, I think that there is simply too much doubt about the intentions of Bon Jovi and friends.

[Mulder]

So if this group does happen to move the team to Toronto what do they call them? They certainly won't call them the Toronto Bills.

Creative thinking comes here to say that the Media/Rogers have been slowly undermining the CFL & Argos in Toronto for years in hopes that they do fold. Buy the name, and there is the newest Toronto football teams name. They certainly cannot do this while they are operating.

Anyways, just a crazy thought

[ArgoRavi]

So if this group does happen to move the team to Toronto what do they call them? They certainly won't call them the Toronto Bills.

Creative thinking comes here to say that the Media/Rogers have been slowly undermining the CFL & Argos in Toronto for years in hopes that they do fold. Buy the name, and there is the newest Toronto football teams name. They certainly cannot do this while they are operating.

Anyways, just a crazy thought

It isn't that crazy, Mulder. There has been media speculation for years that the NFL in Toronto people would love to have the Argonauts name because of the rich football history associated with it.

[Fumblitis]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/14/report-documents-hint-at-plan-to-move-bills-to-toronto/. Did anybody read this yet?

[Argocister]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/14/report-documents-hint-at-plan-to-move-bills-to-toronto/. Did anybody read this yet?

Karma ..... thats all I can say .....:D


Better idea .... the Argos should partner up with the Bills and support each other from a distance .... keep the Bills in Buffalo and support the Argos as Toronto's football team!

[ArgoRavi]

Only a fool would believe that they have no intention of moving the team to Toronto which should immediately disqualify them from this bidding process.

[argolio]

Only a fool would believe that they have no intention of moving the team to Toronto which should immediately disqualify them from this bidding process.It should in theory, and maybe it eventually will. But in fact they're still in the running, so they may have have a chance if they have the best bid by a good enough margin.

[argonaut11xx]

While "The Bill's in Toronto" series was a massive failure on the field, Im quite sure it did help the Rogers folks forge some pretty solid synergy's with both the NFL, and the Bill's hierarchy. Probably a big reason that the group of bidders is being given every single chance to succeed.

[R.J]

While "The Bill's in Toronto" series was a massive failure on the field, Im quite sure it did help the Rogers folks forge some pretty solid synergy's with both the NFL, and the Bill's hierarchy. Probably a big reason that the group of bidders is being given every single chance to succeed.

Or it could be becuase Morgan Stanley and the Bills Trust are using the Bon Jovi Toronto Group to create panic and ensure that higher bids coming in from someone like Terry Pegula (who'll end up owning the team).

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/14/sense-of-lets-get-through-it-permeated-when-toronto-group-met-bills-sellers-sources

The ever-growing sense, even within the Toronto group, is that their bid was kept alive merely to create the illusion for Pegula that he's in a horse race, and to provide the perceived relocation threat needed to convince Pegula and other bidders that the Bills -- Buffalo's Bills -- still need saving.

http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/exclusive-bon-jovitoronto-group-advances-to-final-phase-of-buffalo-bills-sale-to-meet-with-seller-tuesday-in-manhattan/

It was widely believed the trust would advance the Toronto group to the final phase of the sale, if only to keep panic in the sales process.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/sabres-owner-track-buy-bills-report-article-1.1903725

Should also check out Tim Graham's twitter https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham

Seems like piling on, but source close to the Bon Jovi group tells me there's "major tension" within. Partners not getting along lately.

Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · Aug 14
The Bon Jovi group has to be rooting for the Bills sale to wrap up soon. They need to be put out of their misery.

Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · Aug 13
Educated source once involved in Bills sales process says team is "Pegula's to lose" and Bon Jovi group is "unfocused and disorganized."

Tim Graham @ByTimGraham
Same source as earlier tweet tells me Bills will be in Western New York "for a very, very long time whether they get a new stadium or not."

[zontar]

In an interview with resident jackass Sixeiro Brunt finally admits what's been common knowledge for weeks that the Rogers related NFL bid died on the table.

Huge when you consider how much he (Mr. The NFL in Toronto is "inevitible") and the corp. invested so much hype and media manipulation which included ignoring and deriding the CFL - nearly a decade's worth of effort now over.

F*** You , Rogers. Failure looks good on ya.

[ArgoRavi]

In an interview with resident jackass Sixeiro Brunt finally admits what's been common knowledge for weeks that the Rogers related NFL bid died on the table.

Huge when you consider how much he (Mr. The NFL in Toronto is "inevitible") and the corp. invested so much hype and media manipulation which included ignoring and deriding the CFL - nearly a decade's worth of effort now over.

F*** You , Rogers. Failure looks good on ya.

I agree, Zontar. Who can forget those proclamations from Brunt and much of the rest of the Toronto sports media in the fall of 2007 when the Bills in Toronto series was announced? Having said all of this, I still want to hear the official word that the Toronto group has pulled out/failed in its bid for the Bills. However, it is looking like the NFL in Toronto dream is dead for quite some time - or at least it should be. Leiweke's leaving MLSE is also noteworthy as him having NFL contacts was one of the main reasons MSE presumably brought him to Toronto (again, according to so many in the Toronto sports media).

[R.J]

I agree, Zontar. Who can forget those proclamations from Brunt and much of the rest of the Toronto sports media in the fall of 2007 when the Bills in Toronto series was announced? Having said all of this, I still want to hear the official word that the Toronto group has pulled out/failed in its bid for the Bills. However, it is looking like the NFL in Toronto dream is dead for quite some time - or at least it should be. Leiweke's leaving MLSE is also noteworthy as him having NFL contacts was one of the main reasons MSE presumably brought him to Toronto (again, according to so many in the Toronto sports media).

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/08/21/buffalo-bills-bidders-touring-facilities-pegulas-one-group-scheduled-today/
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/21/bon-jovi-toronto-groups-bills-bid-on-life-support

[zontar]

I agree, Zontar. Who can forget those proclamations from Brunt and much of the rest of the Toronto sports media in the fall of 2007 when the Bills in Toronto series was announced? Having said all of this, I still want to hear the official word that the Toronto group has pulled out/failed in its bid for the Bills. However, it is looking like the NFL in Toronto dream is dead for quite some time - or at least it should be. Leiweke's leaving MLSE is also noteworthy as him having NFL contacts was one of the main reasons MSE presumably brought him to Toronto (again, according to so many in the Toronto sports media).

In the interview Brunt mocked the supposedly few Argo fans in TOR for good measure.

[Tau Ceti]

Do you have a link to this interview?

[ArgoRavi]

Do you have a link to this interview?

Go to this site: http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/on-demand/#rotation=1

Go down to Tim and Sid - August 21st and you will hear Brunt there. BTW, do you notice that at the top of FAN 590's website that CFL is listed under the "More" tab rather than having a tab of its own like the NFL or even UFC? That speaks volumes right there.

As far as what Brunt says here, I do agree with what he says about Braley and about Michael Copeland being a strong candidate for CFL commissioner.

[ArgoRavi]

Tanenbaum and Rogers have kicked Bon Jovi out of their group: http://nypost.com/2014/08/29/bon-jovi-out-of-group-bidding-for-bills/

Doesn't this make it even more apparent that these guys would move the Bills to Toronto? If there is even a hint of that happening, they are supposed to be disqualified from this competition.

[Argocister]

Tanenbaum and Rogers have kicked Bon Jovi out of their group: http://nypost.com/2014/08/29/bon-jovi-out-of-group-bidding-for-bills/

Doesn't this make it even more apparent that these guys would move the Bills to Toronto? If there is even a hint of that happening, they are supposed to be disqualified from this competition.

Perhaps Tannenbaum and Rogers could move to NY state .... I wouldn't mind :)

[ArgoRavi]

The Sun is saying that the New York Post report may be erroneous: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/30/bon-jovi-out-of-toronto-nfl-group-if-so-he-wasnt-booted

[ArgoRavi]

Looks like Bon Jovi is still involved in the Toronto bid and that it is still on life support: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/02/bon-jovi-still-part-of-toronto-group-bidding-on-bills-sources

[Deerkeeper]

This from Steve Simmons
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/NFL/2014/09/06/21923611.html
(http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/NFL/2014/09/06/21923611.html)I can't get the whole article, so I don't know what else he had to say, but if he is throwing in the towel, then maybe this nightmare scenario is truly dead.

[Argo57]

This from Steve Simmons
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/NFL/2014/09/06/21923611.html
(http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/NFL/2014/09/06/21923611.html)I can't get the whole article, so I don't know what else he had to say, but if he is throwing in the towel, then maybe this nightmare scenario is truly dead.

Dead for now at least, I'm sure there will be more speculation and attempts to bring a team to Toronto in the future.

[gr8blue]

I know this is a dead issue, but perhaps...finally will be moreso if the news here is true. Needless to say, as a true blue Argo fan...I could not be happier this Tuesday a.m.!

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-news/2014/9/9/6125699/buffalo-bills-sale-terry-pegula-sabres-owner-jon-bon-jovi


(http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-news/2014/9/9/6125699/buffalo-bills-sale-terry-pegula-sabres-owner-jon-bon-jovi)

[AngeloV]

I know this is a dead issue, but perhaps...finally will be moreso if the news here is true. Needless to say, as a true blue Argo fan...I could not be happier this Tuesday a.m.!

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-news/2014/9/9/6125699/buffalo-bills-sale-terry-pegula-sabres-owner-jon-bon-jovi


(http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-news/2014/9/9/6125699/buffalo-bills-sale-terry-pegula-sabres-owner-jon-bon-jovi)

nice first post. Welcome aboard.

[Argocister]

Nice Article ....Thanks for posting.

This part I like ..... maybe we can borrow it but substitute Argos ...
".......
As you prepare for your Tuesday, (Bills) ARGOS fans, be sure to polish up your explainer for why you're grinning like an idiot, plan to keep a browser tab open to every (Buffalo ) ARGO news outlet fathomable, and make no apologies when, if the news drops today, you transform into a party monster in front of your most respected colleagues......"

I think Argos fans can be party monsters in the middle of the day .... for the Blls announcement ... for the win in Calgary .... for when Owens comes back .....
sorry for the rant. It was fun imagining.

[argotom]

When a story is not a story, however only here in the wannabe US city!

[Fumblitis]

Wouldn't it be nice if one of Terry Pegula's billionaire buddies came and bought the Argos.

[Double Dare]

Wouldn't it be nice if one of Terry Pegula's billionaire buddies came and bought the Argos.

What? Move the Argos to North Tonawanda? : )

[argonaut11xx]

Once the sale is officially complete, rumour has it, that the Pegula's are improving the "half time" experience by hiring a band call Bon Jovi